How does marketing and hype affect the average consumer listening experience?
Aug 2, 2017 at 6:40 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 17

ev13wt

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We all know how basically ANY new product here is hyped to the heavens, huge threads, three months later people are saying "meh, not that great."

We have a spec war going on (kinda like in the late 70s and 80s), which leads respected, old manufactures to state crap like: 5Hz to 50KHz response - which only says that consumers are currently so uneducated that "this works!" and "more spec is more sound".

We have the internet, it should be much better these days - you know, finding information. But obviously something is very wrong.

"All" the audio sites have figured out that stupid audiophile worded subjective reviews obviously sell the most product.

Or: "If it sounds good to you, it must be good."
Or: "Buy these cables/DAC/gizmo, they will do wonders for your sound - I know you are a bricklayer with 5 kids, but hey YOU NEED THIS IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!! SAVE UP!

Yes, ok. I'm ranting. Sorry.

We know that most of the audio reproduction happens in ones head, the gear is "good enough" at the 500 bucks for everything level.

  • If its "new" and the next best thing since sliced bread - does it actually "sound great" to, lets say an arbitrary figure of 80% of consumers?
  • If they compare headphones with friends and one headphone has "only" 20KHz response, instead of 50KHz - does it sound "muddy" or does it "lack clarity"?
  • Have you been affected by this? Did something sound very awesome, but later you figured out it really isn't anything different - the differnce was only in your head?
  • Does the word "silver" help with hearing more treble clarity, extension, air? ie: "quality"?
  • How to educate consumers, so they don't fall for marketing BS?
 

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Aug 2, 2017 at 9:38 AM Post #2 of 17
The audiophile component industry is all about marketing. There is very little interest in well engineered components, but lots of interest in well marketed components.
But as to the average consumer listening experience, few is much of the current marketing hype. They are still at the Bose, Monster and silver wire stage.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 2:03 PM Post #3 of 17
I think internet is slowly doing what our education system fails to do, which is providing the tools to develop a critical mind. we still see only what we want to see like a good human striving in confirmation bias, but when we see some strange picture, we go: "that's photoshop!". and because so many times we wonder if it's real or not, we develop skepticism. we stop thinking that everything in a picture or a video has to be real and that every guy's opinion is a fact. in that respect IMO the new generations are on average better equipped for life than people were before. the little flaw is that the amount of people sharing nonsense has increased exponentially and nowadays lying doesn't seem to be accountable anymore(we have some amazing political examples of that).

it's the same idea here. a guy goes "this device is the best thing that ever happened to me". many fall for it. but then next month that guy has the device for sale and goes "that other device is the best!". already a few people with less than deplorable observation skill will notice a potential problem. when asking the exuberant dude who thought it was fine to make an expert review 2 days after getting the device, how comes he said the same thing about the last stuff he bought? he'll have the perfect answer explaining that the old one was the best but this one is the bestest. as simple as that. right there different people will have different reactions. my mother will trust the guy even if he does it again every month for 15years, because "but he's such a nice guy"(love you mum but you're like that and you know it). some friend of mine goes with the 3 strikes rule. I personally tend to think that the 3 strikes rule has 2 strikes too many.

let's just say that in the audiophile community, a lot of people seem to be like my mother and it amazes me TBH. full on trust to the point of gullibility overdrive. so it would be strange if the marketing guys didn't make use of such a goldmine. we can't really blame them for doing their job. in fact on something like headfi many go one step beyond and turn toward amateur reviewers, because it has been established that we(the consumers) trust them more than we trust the professional reviewers. I've done that a few times and it's impossible not to be biased when we get gear to test for free before anyone else, and more often than not we get to keep it or to buy it for a stupidly low price. so it's a funky circle of marketing, biased reviewers, gullible readers who then will repeat what they just read, and after 2 months, everybody uses the same strange sentence found in the first review that was so popular. so new readers not only see a fellow member saying it, but many saying it. which is "proof" that it must be true as everybody seems to "observe" the same thing.


"new is better" is a thing. I'd venture that all those with a high turnaround of gears aren't all that much into audio, and more into making their own Xmas tree every month. look at that kid opening the package with that smile on his face, for 12 seconds he's the happiest dude in the world. I understand the motive, I just don't have the money to play that game.

have I been affected by preconceptions after somebody telling me some nonsense, or reading specs on a box? well I'm a serious audiophile, proud of being more rational and objective than the average guy, so no more than 10 times a day.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 3:16 PM Post #4 of 17
Except people on the internet are generally only skeptical of things they disagree with. They tend to cherry pick results that support whatever their preconceived bias is and use memes as a shortcut to a conclusion, bypassing analysis. Facebook is full of that.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 4:11 PM Post #5 of 17
Except people on the internet are generally only skeptical of things they disagree with. They tend to cherry pick results that support whatever their preconceived bias is and use memes as a shortcut to a conclusion, bypassing analysis. Facebook is full of that.


That is very true. However, in my opinion, if you are into a hobby, regardless if it is Audio or whatever, and you can not justify it in anyways (financially, what and how you are enjoying it...etc) then you are into a wrong hobby. Also, newer doesn't mean better, but it should be.

When you love boating and you can't swim, then you can not even believe in the manufacturer that made your life vest.....yeah....I think you are asking for problems ....lol.

The problems lately I have with this hobby is the forever increasing in pricing "just because it sound good"

Then people who never experienced different type of upgraded cables to keep on saying that it doesn't have any effects....etc.....while it really does. I kept on telling people to pick up a Solder iron, YouTube it up, learn how to do and make it, and you can enjoy them instead of paying a rip-off price. I made my cables, and does it affect the sound performances ? Hell...yes.

Then there are even DIY recipes for amplifiers too

The only thing we can't DIY is the Headphones, but lately people had been trying to make different types, like Ortho, ES, and so....the DIY communities will keep on growing as much as the forever pricing of the mass manufacturers are trying to shovel it down the people throat.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 6:32 PM Post #6 of 17
That is very true. However, in my opinion, if you are into a hobby, regardless if it is Audio or whatever, and you can not justify it in anyways (financially, what and how you are enjoying it...etc) then you are into a wrong hobby. Also, newer doesn't mean better, but it should be.

When you love boating and you can't swim, then you can not even believe in the manufacturer that made your life vest.....yeah....I think you are asking for problems ....lol.

The problems lately I have with this hobby is the forever increasing in pricing "just because it sound good"

Then people who never experienced different type of upgraded cables to keep on saying that it doesn't have any effects....etc.....while it really does. I kept on telling people to pick up a Solder iron, YouTube it up, learn how to do and make it, and you can enjoy them instead of paying a rip-off price. I made my cables, and does it affect the sound performances ? Hell...yes.

Then there are even DIY recipes for amplifiers too

The only thing we can't DIY is the Headphones, but lately people had been trying to make different types, like Ortho, ES, and so....the DIY communities will keep on growing as much as the forever pricing of the mass manufacturers are trying to shovel it down the people throat.

Since you posted that in the Sound Science forum, I'm assuming you can back it up with measurements or some form of properly controlled blind testing? Or something from a manufacturer showing audible improvement.

Before you ask the inevitable, yes, I have tried "audiophile cables". Like many here, I was susceptible to marketing before I had an appropriate grasp of the science involved.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 7:08 PM Post #7 of 17
Since you posted that in the Sound Science forum, I'm assuming you can back it up with measurements or some form of properly controlled blind testing? Or something from a manufacturer showing audible improvement.

Before you ask the inevitable, yes, I have tried "audiophile cables". Like many here, I was susceptible to marketing before I had an appropriate grasp of the science involved.

Sadly, I am not a manufacturer, just saying, you can experience cables of quality by DIY. If you don't bother DIY, then I have no further recommendation. Quality USB cables is not easy to come by, similar thing for regular headphones cables.

I do have different version of USB cables I made for better experiences, and I can confirm that as far as swapping out and picking the best, silver-gold as the materials is my choice. Then ofcourse, I have the ability to do so, so I always try to aim for the best possible in sound performances to my taste when I make them. I am into this hobby, and DIY, simply for performances to my liking sakes, I don't do it for measurements
 
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Aug 2, 2017 at 7:33 PM Post #8 of 17
Sadly, I am not a manufacturer, just saying, you can experience cables of quality by DIY. If you don't bother DIY, then I have no further recommendation. Quality USB cables is not easy to come by, similar thing for regular headphones cables

In any other forum on this site, I wouldn't have responded. If you want to make claims about audible audio improvement in Sound Science, you really need to be prepared to back up your statements with objective data.

Based on the information available, properly functioning USB and headphone cables are trivially easy to come by. Again, if you have evidence to the contrary, not only will I walk back my statements, I'd like to discuss investing in the business that offers the evidence. Many posters in this subforum will line up to buy cable(s) with objective proof that they deliver audibly better audio reproduction.

If by improvements, you're referring to ergonomic improvements, then no argument.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 7:53 PM Post #9 of 17
In any other forum on this site, I wouldn't have responded. If you want to make claims about audible audio improvement in Sound Science, you really need to be prepared to back up your statements with objective data.

Based on the information available, properly functioning USB and headphone cables are trivially easy to come by. Again, if you have evidence to the contrary, not only will I walk back my statements, I'd like to discuss investing in the business that offers the evidence. Many posters in this subforum will line up to buy cable(s) with objective proof that they deliver audibly better audio reproduction.

If by improvements, you're referring to ergonomic improvements, then no argument.

In another word, people need to own a system of thousands of dollar in order to discuss something that can bring improvements into sound science forum and nothing more from your saying ? Ok sir, I am out of here. Enjoy your stay

By the way, if you want specific scientific evidences ? You know what cables do ? Conducting

Do you know the differences between Copper and silver in conductivity ?

Here is something interesting

https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materials
 
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Aug 2, 2017 at 8:05 PM Post #10 of 17
In another word, people need to own a system of thousands of dollar in order to discuss something that can bring improvements into sound science forum and nothing more from your saying ? Ok sir, I am out of here. Enjoy your stay

Well, that's an interesting interpretation of my posts.....

You made a claim that USB cables, DIY or otherwise could improve audible sound quality. I asked you for data to support that claim. Given the number of companies that make cables, that should be trivially easy to locate and post if any proof actually existed.

All I stated was that claims made in this forum are expected to be supported by evidence/data. Is that really setting the bar too high in a subforum titled "Sound Science "?
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 8:30 PM Post #11 of 17
while indeed @Whitigir made a claim about cables(why?), it's fair to ask for evidence as it's a package deal with claims. now what will he prove? that he can measure a difference? any 2 cables will have some so there is no point in doing that. as for audibility, let's be realistic, we'll probably never get anywhere because we'll still have to take his word for it, be it that he can notice a change in sighted evaluation or that he attempted a proper blind test.

in any case, let's not to turn this topic into yet another cable nonsense(not that cables are nonsense, the arguments are). if you both wish to keep discussing this, please move to a more related topic. I can't move posts anymore, the full extent of my super power on the new forum is a loud mouth and deleting stuff.
 
Aug 2, 2017 at 8:45 PM Post #12 of 17
while indeed @Whitigir made a claim about cables(why?), it's fair to ask for evidence as it's a package deal with claims. now what will he prove? that he can measure a difference? any 2 cables will have some so there is no point in doing that. as for audibility, let's be realistic, we'll probably never get anywhere because we'll still have to take his word for it, be it that he can notice a change in sighted evaluation or that he attempted a proper blind test.

in any case, let's not to turn this topic into yet another cable nonsense(not that cables are nonsense, the arguments are). if you both wish to keep discussing this, please move to a more related topic. I can't move posts anymore, the full extent of my super power on the new forum is a loud mouth and deleting stuff.


You're right, it's not a worthwhile debate. Have to admit that for as many times as these claims are made in other subforums where they can't be challenged, it's hard to let them pass here.

Sorry bout the OT.
 
Aug 3, 2017 at 1:44 AM Post #13 of 17
I'm interested to know if the engineers believe in the own marketing or the own company push in various unproven technologies, like high resolution benefits (beyond human hearing ability). For instance, the engineers at Sony or Audioquest or . I expect they do believe in its benefits and aren't intentionally lying. And the marketing guys believe in it just the same. It doesn't mean that it's true. It's just that the snake oil salesman doesn't always know he is that. He often doesn't. It's assumed in a kind of cartoony way that he must be devious, out to get you... but i think with audiophile companies they are not generally "preying" on the consumer's ignorance, it's that they are ignorant too.

I think customers also believe in someone else more if they believe it themselves; it's more convincing. It is probably true with various people on stage that have been called con-men or snake oil salesmen. Like my mom (Castle was speaking of moms earlier, so...) detests Dr. Oz and hates whenever one of his commercials, web ads or just his face appears on a magazine cover while she's in the checkout at the grocery store, she says. She says she wouldn't trust him for a second... and the way I see it, or figure it, he probably is a sincere person about whatever "magical" weightloss supplement he might be selling next. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know Dr. Oz. I don't know engineers at Sony or Audeze or wherever. Maybe they're all out to get us. But I think they do their work better when they believe in it themselves, their bosses and co-workers like that, it's good for team spirit and getting along. Having a lot of Doubting Thomases around when you go up a podium, like in the picture at the top of this article... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0315/Interview_Yoshioka_Sony_NW_ZX2.htm
you're backed by all those Hi-Res logos, and all those logos are important to all the company's new products, they're on everything audio that they're selling. A guy in that position, even if he has secret inner doubts, he cannot express that or reveal that there in a presentation... he has to try to convince himself that it's true! (And that's if he has doubts).

I mention "the engineers" because in a lot of those webpages by Sony they include interviews with the designers. To me, that is a kind of marketing, just as Jason Stoddard here openly describes his own posts here as a kind of marketing, even when it's in chit-chatty form and not a part of The Book or whatever that he's continuously writing. See, like here, in their Headphones Park, they have plenty of interviews (promotional interviews, all 100% positive about their design intentions): http://www.sony.jp/headphone/special/park/engineers_interview/
Are they telling the truth? Maybe, as they see it. Is it the truth about various things claimed, that brass produces this or that sound quality in a headphone, or that the enclosure of the Walkman needs to be made of these materials to bring about better transparent sound and... maybe not! Maybe none of that is true, but the designers actually still believe it is. Who knows.



Probably a lot of companies don't want to hire workers that are like "oh we could have made this for $400 less and sold it at..." if they want to keep their products in the $1000+ range. And engineers that are put on a project to make the best new most transparent sounding DAP or whatever... they don't want to disappoint their bosses. But even if they have doubts themselves, they try to believe in it because they don't want to let down their fellow workers. That would be my guess.

As for marketing purely, I look at the photographs, and well, I do think if they put a lot of effort into their photos it does say something about what they think of their product. They do (usually) want to sell you their best stuff. Word gets out fast if a product is bad, especially a lemon (breaks). So they want to put their best foot forward. The photos give a "lifestyle" impression of who it might appeal to, ideally, or what kind of joy or interest it might excite and so forth. I don't find them too lying usually. I mean, it might show someone dressed unrealistically nice in a city location enjoying his phones outside... or but it's not like impossible. Most of the advertising photos in audiophile world can have a fairly boringly down to earth quality to them, although they over-do it on the decor of houses and apartments, usually looking amazingly minimalistic or clean and futuristic... sometimes they get carried away with that and I think "gee, the marketing really isn't too in touch with the product, or the designers have no input on this."

I think the marketing affects people with the confidence it exudes, or a sense of luxury it's trying to imply.
There's also a problem where audio reached "near perfection" a long time ago, didn't it, I mean in terms of sources and digital reproduction, maybe not so much the speakers and headphones? The "perfect sound forever," that's 1982. So it's a problem. What does a company churn out next, what do they have to show at the next audio exhibit? Gotta keep their name out there somehow. Boring to keep selling the same products - right? There may be integrity in that, but it's not exciting, people want talk and write about it unless it's seemingly a NEW product. So there's a push. But it hasn't been the natural, more effortless success of advances with computers, with like a new phone or game system can easily demonstrate its new technical achievements, by showing more pixels (and you can count them) or more accurate colors, and so forth. Easy to see and measure and for multiple people to see at once in the same room.

Audiophiles on the other hand, the headphone variety especially, it's a personal activity. But I suspect this technology too has peaked or come close to it with the best that's out there now, or even from a few years ago.. so I don't know where it goes next, but the marketing is all that's left. It's a bunch of gooey dreamy nonsense maybe, but what else can you say about the new product that is the same as the last 10 or 20...? A similar thing has happened with digital cameras.

I think it is best to enjoy the marketing and find it beautiful as its own sort of art. It's been like that with cars for a long time because people haven't needed many of the new advances in cars and trucks for many years, aside maybe from navigation systems if that isn't increasing the rates of distracted driving.

It's also noteworthy that not much of the audiophile adveritising makes it out there in the general digital landscape, of like CNET or Digital Trends or whatever. I mean, I've seen some (targeted) headphone ads before, like of V-MODA on YouTube that play before a video, but it's kind of its own separate niche culture of weird enthusiasts who apparently are lonely sorts too, who are always on the lookout for equipment that accurately reproduces female vocals without sounding harsh. It doesn't belong in the mainstream, which should be telling. I mean, at CNET you have Steve Guttenberg and he'll review various things, but he's kind of in his own corner as "The Audiophiliac" (basically a columnist, but the word sounds like he has a disease), while the main stories on the front page of CNET are all about the new phones, laptops, even cars. But not some new DAC or amp or something; not unless it's truly revolutionary technology? Well maybe Pono got in. That was what was "special" about Pono because it edged in due to the celebrity of that musician.
 
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Aug 3, 2017 at 4:09 AM Post #14 of 17
I think internet is slowly doing what our education system fails to do, which is providing the tools to develop a critical mind.

Ah but if only that were true! OK, in a sense it is true, the internet does provide the tools to develop a critical mind, the problem is that without guidance the average person won't know those tools exist or if they do, won't know how to use them. It's effectively a vicious circle, you need to be educated in order to educate yourself. About a decade ago, when I was a university lecturer in music technology/audio engineering, it was standard practice to provide students with various external web links at the end of a lecture which provided further information related to the topic of the lecture, typically due to the fact that there often wasn't time enough in the lecture to do more than introduce certain concepts and provide basic information. On one occasion, a student became unexpectedly angry, shouting that if the information was all already available on the internet why the hell did he need to spend so much going to university and why did he need any lecturers. The answer should have been glaringly obvious, there were thousands of articles and posts about pretty much every audio subject area, the problem being that the vast majority of them were either entirely wrong or partially incorrect/inaccurate. The reason he needed a lecturer was for the lecturer's knowledge of the subject area and therefore the ability to indicate which articles/web pages would actually further the students' education rather than mislead them. This became quite a problem as time went on, students making nonsense points in their submitted essays, backed up by references to articles/web pages which were incorrect. Back before the web, the only source of references in essays were published books and journals and while some of them could still be wrong/inaccurate, it wasn't the vast majority.

While there had always been a backlash against science from religion, today there is a popular rebellion against science not because of religion but because of the sheer amount and availability of "fake news" which requires more of a critical mind than perhaps at any point in history. Unfortunately, in the vast majority of subject areas our education systems are based more on the ability to absorb and repeat facts than it is on the ability to critically analyse what actually is fact. If anything, the information revolution is not aiding critical thinking, it is harming it. The sheer wealth of "fake news" (deliberate or inadvertent) leads many to believe they have (or are developing) a critical mind when in fact the whole edifice of their understanding is based on falsehood. This isn't just a problem with audiophilia, it's a problem across the board, even affecting life threatening subject areas like medicine (the anti-vax movement for example) and of course climate science. The problem is that there is typically significant financial reward in creating marketing BS and none in telling the truth and therefore far more fake news/marketing BS in the audiophile world than real facts. A superficial (and even not so superficial) look into the audiophile world reveals overwhelming evidence for many/most audiophile claims (albeit anecdotal or based on marketing "facts"). For the beginner it's near impossible to logically conclude that so much "news" can actually be "fake news" and those of us trying to combat that fake news just seem like a few amateur disgruntled nutters because we don't have marketing budgets to present the actual facts in nice glossy professional looking brochures and web adverts. Case in point:

In another word, people need to own a system of thousands of dollar in order to discuss something that can bring improvements into sound science forum and nothing more from your saying ? Ok sir, I am out of here. Enjoy your stay

It's always the same. An upside down critical mind, so thoroughly convinced that the "fake news" is actually real, that they'll even post in a science forum, honestly believing their information will "bring improvements" to said forum. Ask for any actual facts to back up the claim and all you get is indignation and probably; some quotes from marketing materials, some real but unrelated/irrelevant facts, some serious deflection and deliberate misrepresentation and eventually insults and statements like (or implying) "I'm out of here, to leave you nutters to it" because how can we be so idiotic as to question facts with so much overwhelming evidence they're virtually unquestionable?

As far as the actual science and facts are concerned, you are doing precisely the OPPOSITE of your stated intention. How does fake news touted as actual fact "bring improvements" to a science forum? Fake news is the antithesis of science, a perversion of science and science was largely invented and developed specifically to counter "fake news". Your "bring improvements into sound science forum", although I assume entirely unintentionally, is in effect; "I want to pervert and destroy sound science"!

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