[shimage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Probably right, which is why I urge people to try it? Have you?

Isn't that what I just did?
EDIT: Well, not just did, but in my initial post in this thread. I'm pretty sure that's what I suggested.
EDIT2: Looks to me like I've already agreed with you about trials on two separate occasions in this very thread. The only (assumed) disagreement is on how the trials should be conducted

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimage Isn't that what I just did? EDIT: Well, not just did, but in my initial post in this thread. I'm pretty sure that's what I suggested.

My bad. I wasn't asking if you had suggested other people try aftermarket power cords. I was asking if you had tried any, the point being that neither one of us will be able to persuade the other if you haven't heard, because the issue is all about what we hear.

 

[Welly Wu]

No offense to all of the parties involved as I know this is a very serious controversy that always pops up in Hi-Fi discussion forums, but have you guys done any searching for past threads and posts on this subject matter? Power cords, interconnects, speaker cables, power conditioning, balanced power, filtration, digital versus analog, high resolution versus Red Book CD formats, etc: they have all been covered in detail in past threads. I am not saying that this thread or these specific posts do not have any merit whatsoever.

You know what would be a new wrinkle? Do a search for those old posts and provide links for each point / rebuttal so as to save yourself the hard work of thinking up replies and actually doing some manual labor: typing.

All this is in jest.

 

[JWFokker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I would argue the contrary. If you listen, and the differences are real to you (i.e., you can hear them with your ears), you don't need to worry about the scientific explanation, or someone else who doesn't own your ears telling you that you can't possibly hear what you hear. To you, the differences are reall and not imagined. The bane of the skeptic's existence is the fact that you can try for yourself, often on 30-day or 60-day return. With every such trial, the skeptics tend to lose another skeptic.

If you hear difference that aren't there, then you're imagining it. That's the fact of the matter and there's no disputing it.

Main Entry: imag·ine
Pronunciation: im-'aj-&n
Function: verb
Inflected Forms: imag·ined; imag·in·ing /-'aj-(&-)ni[ng]/
transitive senses
: to form a mental image of (something not present)
: to use the imagination

Courtesy of Merriam-Webster's Dictionary


Are you suggesting that people should throw money away on 'improvements' that aren't there? When you spend considerable sums of money on equipment that you're told will improve the quality of your audio, do you think there's no possibility that even if there's no difference, people will WANT to hear a difference and as a result convince themselves there is one? Just because someone thinks the sound is improved doesn't make it so. Break out an SPL meter, run RMAA tests, but don't deceive yourself by thinking it was a worthwhile investment when it's not. The entire audio cable industry is based upon a distinct lack of any empirical data whatsoever. No frequency response graphs, no noise level measurements. Hell, they don't even provide inductance or capacitance measurements over a given distance. These are things they COULD measure, but it would only show that their 'amazing $300/ft superconductor power conduit' is no better than any normal shielded/braided power cable of a reasonable gauge. The same goes for any other audio cable. Buy a power line conditioner and some 'decent' cables and you're audio will be about as good as it's going to get. Your drivers (be they headphones or speakers) and source are the two most important components by far, and your money will be far better spent on them, rather than cables.

 

[PhilS]

JWFokker, do you have experience with high end power cords, and if so, what was your experience and what results did you find?

 

[ACAVant]

To add my 2 cents to the original question asked by rnb, my thoughts go like this:
An interconnect is used to maximise the signal flowing between two items allowing them to function more efficiently. A better built interconnect carries more signal, agreed? A power cable is no less. It transfers a signal (240v or whatever it is in your respective parts of the world) from the mains supply to the amp, cd player, whatever. If you can supply your source equipment with an improved power cable, it can more easily meet it's power requirements making it a more efficient unit. Please feel free to correct me on any points or dispute anything I've written as I'd love the feedback. But more than anything I hope this has helped.

 

[braillediver]

My working theory now is that the power cord does not “improve” the sound- what a good quality power cord does is “Not” strangle the power being supplied which allows the power supply to work as designed which allows the intended sound of the amplifier to emerge.


I was using a cheesy 18 awg x 3 computer power cord with my headphone amplifier. Monday I installed a 14 awg x 3 better quality power cord and as much as I want to deny it there seems to be more depth and clarity.

Why? My only logical explanation would be my new working theory.

Talking with an engineer at work about audio tweaks the one tweak he believed that could improve the sound quality of the audio gear would be improving the power supply. So anything that helps the power supply work better would help the gear perform better. Not specifically better but to the peak of it’s inherent ability.

Consider running a high end sports car with cheap low octane gas. The low quality fuel hinders the cars performance. Using the correct fuel, the fuel the vehicle was designed to use just lets it run at it’s optimum level of performance. The better fuel just lets the car do what it was designed to do and not hinder its operation.

I can’t accept the idea that a power cord improves the sound- it just doesn’t make sense. But I can accept the idea that an inferior power cord can hinder a components ability to perform at its peak. Where that optimum point or point of equilibrium is I have no idea but I am willing to experiment to find it.


Mitch

 

[ACAVant]

brailledriver, thanks for expanding on my answer.

 

[RnB180]

yea, but these reviews Im reading in hi fi magazines already use premium cords, but then another hi fi power cable comes along and they state that it changed sonic signature.

I agree wholeheartedly that a good power cord will not strangle the flow. My question is comparisons between the elite cables already that people regard as a sonic tweak.

 

[RnB180]

JW,

what interconnects have you compared that would allow you to arrive at your claims that incterconnects do not have distinct difference. I do not believe that its as cut as dry as sending a signal untainted.

the design and material properties of interconnects can both have sonic differences while both will have low resistance and send the signal unphased on the same level.

as with out t amp arugment we had a while back, before I take your opinion seriously, I need to know you bsckground experience and what listening and comparison tests you have actually done with said cables and equipment used.

have you ever sat down and listened to a pure copper cable and a pure silver cable? both can deliver the signal fine, but sound different.

I noticed a huge difference switching speaker cables, in which both were competant offerings but the sonic differences were too noticeable to even consider your claims.

 

[ACAVant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 yea, but these reviews Im reading in hi fi magazines already use premium cords, but then another hi fi power cable comes along and they state that it changed sonic signature. I agree wholeheartedly that a good power cord will not strangle the flow. My question is comparisons between the elite cables already that people regard as a sonic tweak.

Hey rnb, what do you mean by the sonic signature being changed? As in staging or audio characteristics? I am again going to compare a power cable to an interconnect. ICs improve sound quality because of an improved signal flow between two components. Now, these ICs can only transmit as much signal as they can, but also how much can be provided by the source equipment. So, if your amplifier is able to draw more power due to a higher grade power cable, the potential for sending a signal to the speakers has increased as now the amplifier's power source is performing at a higher level. The same goes for other components. i.e. CD player for the same reason. Sending a signal from a CD player with a better power cable to an amp results in more signal being sent from the CD player due to it running optimally. Obviously with improved cables this effect is maximised, but you should notice a difference using bog stockers. "Difference" of course being subjective due to everyone's ears being different.

Love the work on your cables btw.

 

[AC1]

In a perfect world where components can convert AC to DC perfectly, then yes, power cords should not be able to "improve" the sound.
In real application this is not the case. Improved soundstage is easy to explain since it usually comes about by reducing noise and distortion, where even though there is a conversion, feeding a component with less AC noise/distortion still makes a difference. And there is more variation to noise/distortion pickup of a cable than you might think. Just because a cable is heavly shielded or braided for noise rejection, does not solve all the issues with noise/distortion, and even then those can cause different noise/distortion issues. Unfortunately it seems a lot of people on here believe as long as a cable has a shield etc, it is an ideal solution, when it is not.

 

[yorkie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 In a perfect world where components can convert AC to DC perfectly, then yes, power cords should not be able to "improve" the sound. In real application this is not the case. Improved soundstage is easy to explain since it usually comes about by reducing noise and distortion, where even though there is a conversion, feeding a component with less AC noise/distortion still makes a difference. And there is more variation to noise/distortion pickup of a cable than you might think. Just because a cable is heavly shielded or braided for noise rejection, does not solve all the issues with noise/distortion, and even then those can cause different noise/distortion issues. Unfortunately it seems a lot of people on here believe as long as a cable has a shield etc, it is an ideal solution, when it is not.

Can we deal with specifics? I'm new to this debate so for all I know you might be totally right or wrong, but I don't see any evidence to support your claims.

The signal isn't converted into DC until after it passes through the power cord, so how is the power cord (beyond quality of the plug) any different than the miles of AC cable that lead to your house?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 have you ever sat down and listened to a pure copper cable and a pure silver cable? both can deliver the signal fine, but sound different.

Electrically speaking the difference between the two materials is negligible. There is no explanation why the dynamics of the sound would change, because that implies some sort of interference at specific frequencies.

I'll say it again for emphasis: To an electric signal, there is no difference that anyone has ever recorded to explain an audible change in signal path. There are very slight (inaudible) differences but nothing more. The audio industry is the only one that believes in this phantom signal change.

If you heard a difference between the two, it's either because of the interconnects, build quality, or imaginary perceived differences.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie If you heard a difference between the two, it's either because of the interconnects, build quality, or imaginary perceived differences.

This is basically what's known as an "ipse dixit," meaning: "It is so because I say it is so." This is one of the favorite debating tactics of the skeptics. They seem to believe that the state of the science regarding audio perception by the human brain is complete and fully understood and will advance no further; therefore, scientific principles absolutely must trump the actual experience of thousands and thousands of intelligent listeners.

In any event, since you are so certain as to the audible effects of upgraded power cords, can I inquire as to your actual experience with power cords? I am wondering whether you have tried them and found no difference -- and that is the foundation of your certainty on this issue -- or whether you are one of the skeptics who have no practical experience with the products under discussion (who by the way tend to be the most dogmatic, which is rather amusing).

 

[braillediver]

“If you heard a difference between the two, it's either because of the interconnects, build quality, or imaginary perceived differences.”

NO- I’ve heard the difference. AudioTruth Lapis X3 Silver cables have a Distinct audible sound signature completely different from (I think they were) AudioTruth Emerald X3’s which are Identical in construction except the Emeralds are copper and the Lapis are silver.

What do you base you definitive statement on? Have you ever heard silver versus copper cables. What cables have you had the opportunity to listen to?

If you listen to music through test equipment then you might be able to test for the difference. But you listen to music with your ears and process the information with your brain. These 2 components- The brain and ears are not reproducible in any piece of test equipment.


Mitch