[sonitus mirus]

Why don't you play around with this online calculator using realistic scenarios to get a general idea of just how much of a difference cables tend to make?

https://www.electrovoice.com/cableloss.php?x=38.9820821&y=-77.4341559&geolocation=1

When discussing interconnects, such as a DAC to amp or source to DAC, the typical lengths required and electrical properties involved are mostly insignificant with regards to the cable material. If an audible difference were to be heard, it would clearly be measurable and more than likely be the result of a defect.

 

[bigshot]

It's interesting that the people who beat the drum for "science doesn't know everything" are the same people who don't know much about what science *does* know. I guess ignorance begets ignorance. If you don't know what you're talking about, the rest of the world must not know too.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

After reading a whole lot of these threads lately I would have to agree with you Bigshot. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I am certainly not educated in these areas and have never really fully submersed myself into the technical side of hi fi outside of these threads simply because it doesn't interest me. Music does.
Therefor I rely on people who quite obviously know what they're talking about to steer me through troubled waters...and make damn sure they're not selling anything.
A bit of common sense will also get you a long ways.

That's not enough though. No matter how much science and facts you throw in the audiophile direction it's still down to the individual to take the first step. A door needs to open somehow. I know because I was there myself not too long ago and nothing absolutely NOTHING I read anywhere could've pulled me out of my self-fuelled fantasia trip. I bought into the whole shenanigan.
What changed my mind then? Well I tried to put my money where my mouth is and ended up feeling like a schmo. Yeah well it wasn't exactly a bet as much as it was an attempt at being honest with myself and of course prove that I could hear all the stuff I did when I could see what I was listening to.
Then I found this subforum and it confirmed me of what I'd already experienced firsthand: people tend to be the weak link in the audio chain.

 

[bigshot]

I don't think it's ever a good idea to depend on others to tell you what you should do unless it just doesn't matter. Depending on sales literature and internet forums is just plain dumb. Salesmen lie and there is absolutely no qualification to type words in an internet forum. Some people online know what they're talking about, but it's up to you to figure out who those people are. That takes a little research and fact checking.

I love music, but I'm interested in the ins and outs of sound reproduction too. It isn't an either / or thing. Since I'm interested in sound, it isn't a chore to do a little bit of thoughtful research into the basics of how digital audio works and what all those numbers on those charts and diagrams mean. Honestly, I can't imagine someone never bothering to figure out the basics and then having the gall to present themselves as an expert on the internet, but I guess self awareness is a rare commodity in some people.

I enjoy discussing how sound works, and I search out people who know more than I do who are willing to share. That's why I'm here. But I see people all the time who aren't interested in discussing facts about sound and would rather tear down the people who know more than they do. It makes no sense to me, but we have several stellar examples of anti-intellectualism around here that seem to turn up regularly, just like a bad penny.

 

[JaeYoon]

I don't think it's ever a good idea to depend on others to tell you what you should do unless it just doesn't matter. Depending on sales literature and internet forums is just plain dumb. Salesmen lie and there is absolutely no qualification to type words in an internet forum. Some people online know what they're talking about, but it's up to you to figure out who those people are. That takes a little research and fact checking.

I love music, but I'm interested in the ins and outs of sound reproduction too. It isn't an either / or thing. Since I'm interested in sound, it isn't a chore to do a little bit of thoughtful research into the basics of how digital audio works and what all those numbers on those charts and diagrams mean. Honestly, I can't imagine someone never bothering to figure out the basics and then having the gall to present themselves as an expert on the internet, but I guess self awareness is a rare commodity in some people.

I enjoy discussing how sound works, and I search out people who know more than I do who are willing to share. That's why I'm here. But I see people all the time who aren't interested in discussing facts about sound and would rather tear down the people who know more than they do. It makes no sense to me, but we have several stellar examples of anti-intellectualism around here that seem to turn up regularly, just like a bad penny.

It makes sense to me though why so much people are highly supportive of audiophile equipment. We are on a website that is sponsored by companies that sell audio cables, headphones, earphones, AMPs, DAC/AMP. Each company had a goal to secure a fanbase and make money.

It would be big trouble to them if everyone made careful purchasing decisions in purchasing audio equipment.

Plus new toy syndrome is also what keeps these companies afloat, and the people who purchase their products naturally defend their purchase.

Added: just imagine being in the shoes of someone who just purchased $1999 audio cable. You join the club in a thread and hang out on that part of forum with your new friends who have same cable and like talking about how much it changes the sound in all of your audio equipment, laptops, phones, audio players.

Then someone comes along and says well you should get a microphone and some measuring equipment and measure them to see what they really are doing. That it probably isn't better than a high quality cable that can be bought for less.

Naturally, the club group will scoff at the guy and tell him/her that it is ridiculous to propose a $17 dollar cable can match what they invested. It's a natural element to protect their purchase, and to keep the standing that it is of a higher tier product than that clothhanger wire, etc.

That is why people who are big fans of their equipment tend to not like this section.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

Why don't you play around with this online calculator using realistic scenarios to get a general idea of just how much of a difference cables tend to make?

https://www.electrovoice.com/cableloss.php?x=38.9820821&y=-77.4341559&geolocation=1

When discussing interconnects, such as a DAC to amp or source to DAC, the typical lengths required and electrical properties involved are mostly insignificant with regards to the cable material. If an audible difference were to be heard, it would clearly be measurable and more than likely be the result of a defect.

The audiophiles will just tell you the same thing the 'engineers' on here tell you: "Screw the measurements - use your ears!!"

.....smh

 

[gregorio]

The audiophiles will just tell you the same thing the 'engineers' on here tell you: "Screw the measurements - use your ears!!"

Do you think that if you repeat that lie often enough it becomes true? Even if you do, what place has that tactic here in the sound science forum?

G

 

[castleofargh]

The audiophiles will just tell you the same thing the 'engineers' on here tell you: "Screw the measurements - use your ears!!"

.....smh

the famous engineering motto: "screw the measurements". of course we've all heard it too many times, along with the military guys who keep shouting "let's make love, not war" while attacking. Mars Attack style.

despite that strange joke, you do bring up an obvious issue for this topic and many others. if the people we're talking to, have beforehand rejected measurements and blind testing, what alternative is left to demonstrate something to a community? I have yet to figure that out, how we're supposed to demonstrate a significant objective change in sound without measurements. and how we're supposed to demonstrate audibility without control implemented in the listening test. it's a mystery to me.

 

[Maxx134]

Some people online know what they're talking about, but it's up to you to figure out who those people are. That takes a little research and fact checking.

A good suggestion is to find members who have same preferences and hear similarly to you, then find what is their experience.

The audiophiles will just tell you the same thing the 'engineers' on here tell you: "Screw the measurements - use your ears!!"

.....smh

In my workings on tube amps, I find measurements are very critical in helping evaluating changes heard.
The two aspects must help each other.

I also I always use a frame of reference when evaluating, so I won't get used to a skewed sound.

Then you get to a point where the values of parts can be same but give different listening results, like capacitors.

So experience is vital in older designs that rely on parts quality.
I have learned the importance to take all information especially measurements.
.
Before my amp & headphone journeys I admit I was more of hearing results without knowing why type.

I think technology is still progressing in many areas like in the USB arena where all was thought to be fine until we found out about jitter problems and low voktage PSU noise interfering with the isolation or stability of the jitter..
I am making a general statements there but feel technology can continue to refine.

I think the journey of the hobbiest is wide and we need to be patient with those that not want or able to have a grasp on the technicalities.

 

[bigshot]

A good suggestion is to find members who have same preferences and hear similarly to you, then find what is their experience.

I find that I can learn as much from people with different tastes as those I share preferences with, but they have to be able to express why they prefer what they prefer. If all that mattered was preferences, then I wouldn't have to listen to anyone else at all. I would just "like" something because I "like" it.

 

[PointyFox]

For highly priced stuff that doesn't make a difference in sound quality like amps, DACs, and cables, I just buy what I like the look and feel of.

 

[JaeYoon]

For highly priced stuff that doesn't make a difference in sound quality like amps, DACs, and cables, I just buy what I like the look and feel of.

TBH I also bought the Campfire Andromeda also because of it's awesome green paint. It looks really good in person when sun reflects off the anodizing.

 

[bigshot]

For highly priced stuff that doesn't make a difference in sound quality like amps, DACs, and cables, I just buy what I like the look and feel of.

I focus on convenience and features. Generally, that doesn't require paying a lot.

 

[PointyFox]

TBH I also bought the Campfire Andromeda also because of it's awesome green paint. It looks really good in person when sun reflects off the anodizing.

"For highly priced stuff that doesn't make a difference in sound quality like amps, DACs, and cables". Where did I mention that the transducers didn't make a difference in sound quality? They make the MOST difference in sound quality.

 

[Maxx134]

For highly priced stuff that doesn't make a difference in sound quality like amps, DACs, and cables, I just buy what I like the look and feel of.

I had the Chord Mojo, and then the iFiMicroBL, and then settled for the way cheaper "xDuoo XD-5", which to me was truley just as good and way more practical.
Sometimes we learn the hard way at expense of our wallets...