How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
Sep 15, 2018 at 2:25 AM Post #1,021 of 2,686

gregorio

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[1] hey kid, I provided a link to a study that proves people can hear differences in cables so please stop talking to me, [2] you are delusional or ignoring the plain fact that you are wrong.

1. You did not provide a link to a study and it did not prove people can hear differences. This is the science forum, don't you know the difference between a scientific study and just getting a bunch of people in a room and asking what sounds better? You are the one who brought up "Science 101" when it suited you but since then all you've done is contradict or pervert science 101.

2. What "Science 101" did you learn which indicates hypocrisy is a valid argument? Again, did you not notice this is the Sound Science forum? Just accusing others of EXACTLY what you are guilty of does not "cut it" here, it just makes you look foolish, a troll or both!

[1] Don’t we all should close this thread? No winner or loser here.
[2] It needs a very good system to hear the difference in cables, if your set up is under $2000,forget it and stop debating :)

1. Apparently we should not close this thread, if the conclusion you've arrived at is that there's "No winner or loser here"!

2. Maybe we should close the thread though, because we're just going round in circles: Some audiophile states they can clearly hear the difference between cables and those who can't have either a poor system, poor hearing or both. We then spend a few pages demonstrating how utterly ridiculous that argument is: Those with the best, most expensive systems and most finely tuned listening abilities (top commercial studios and the engineers who work in them) do NOT use audiophile cables because there is no audible difference PLUS, the actual measurements and science/engineering prove there is no audible difference. Against all the decades of evidence, said audiophile has absolutely no reliable evidence WHATSOEVER, just some nonsense theories based on magical properties inspired by marketing pseudo-science. Said audiophile eventually get's all stroppy, quotes even more marketing nonsense, makes-up outright lies, soaks everything in a thick dripping layer of hypocrisy, usually ends up insulting anyone who doesn't accept their nonsense and goes off in a huff. What happens next? .... Another audiophile comes along, posts that they can clearly hear the difference between cables and those who can't have either a poor system, poor hearing or both! I understand that many audiophiles are so suckered by the marketing pseudo-science and their own listening biases that they find it difficult/impossible to accept the actual facts, but does being an audiophile "cable believer" also mean that you can't go back a few pages in the thread and read the exact same argument you're wanting to post has already been posted (and shown to be ridiculous nonsense)?

Open-minded people, like for example certain newcomers may interpret expressions like that as the only truth.

When you look out of your bedroom window, do you see the Earth as a sphere or does it look essentially flat? Why then do so few people actually believe that the Earth is flat? ... It's because; most people are aware of the decades of overwhelming evidence and accept the demonstrated science, even to the point of assuming those who believe the Earth is flat must be "nutters". So, two questions for you:
1. Are you open-minded that the Earth is flat?
2. If not why not?
Again, we are going round in circles. I've asked these two questions of audiophile "cable believers" in this thread before and they NEVER answer. My answers are:
1. No.
2. Because there's absolutely no reliable evidence to support the idea but overwhelming reliable evidence against it, plus the knowledge and predictions of science.

Same with "audiophile cables": 1. Are you open-minded that audiophile cables make an audible difference? 2 If not, why not? Here's my answers:
1. No.
2. Because there's absolutely no reliable evidence to support the idea but overwhelming reliable evidence against it, plus the knowledge and predictions of science.

Where's the difference? The only difference I can see, is that audiophile "cable believers" may not be aware of the "overwhelming reliable evidence, plus the knowledge and predictions of science". If they are aware of it, how are they different to those who believe the Earth is flat?

Finally, we return yet again, to the point about hypocrisy: Why are we supposed to be "open-minded" about something for which there is so much overwhelming evidence that it's not rational to be open-minded but audiophiles don't have to be open-minded to all the overwhelming reliable evidence?

G
 
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Sep 15, 2018 at 2:28 AM Post #1,022 of 2,686

bigshot

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If we closed every thread that went around in circles, Sound Science would be a ghost town.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 6:35 AM Post #1,023 of 2,686

71 dB

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I truly am not feeling well and needed a laugh, even if at my own expense.

Take care of yourself man. I hope you feel better.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 11:20 AM Post #1,026 of 2,686

439598

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Don’t we all should close this thread? No winner or loser here.
It needs a very good system to hear the difference in cables, if your set up is under $2000,forget it and stop debating :)
have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ? even after trying to coax someone to do it.
there is no proof to say the differences dont exist, the studies that suggest there is can be analysed and the broken down pretty easily to explain why. The deniers are narrow-minded, they take their own inability to hear (with ears and/or brain) as 'truth' and reinforce this idea with any weak evidence they can find. some mean well and I respect that, unfortunately they are perpetuated by measurements which are only a guide and not the final verdict on sound... measurements are used in so many different areas other than cables so you'd expect they'd have figured that out by now.

there is no harm in someone building a HQ cable that will let them see if they can hear a difference, they will learn to build and repair cables from doing this, that is a valuable skill for anyone. The immediate response from either side should be ''build a cable and see for yourself'', and end this worthless discussion.

and yes price can be a factor, but obviously where you put $2000 is what matters, you need the experience/advice to know how to make the most of it.
DIY is a slower process but can be cheaper with the right guidance, it is much more rewarding and changes are more flexible, resulting in a personalised system.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 12:43 PM Post #1,027 of 2,686

Arpiben

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have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ? even after trying to coax someone to do it.
there is no proof to say the differences dont exist, the studies that suggest there is can be analysed and the broken down pretty easily to explain why. The deniers are narrow-minded, they take their own inability to hear (with ears and/or brain) as 'truth' and reinforce this idea with any weak evidence they can find. some mean well and I respect that, unfortunately they are perpetuated by measurements which are only a guide and not the final verdict on sound... measurements are used in so many different areas other than cables so you'd expect they'd have figured that out by now.

there is no harm in someone building a HQ cable that will let them see if they can hear a difference, they will learn to build and repair cables from doing this, that is a valuable skill for anyone. The immediate response from either side should be ''build a cable and see for yourself'', and end this worthless discussion.

and yes price can be a factor, but obviously where you put $2000 is what matters, you need the experience/advice to know how to make the most of it.
DIY is a slower process but can be cheaper with the right guidance, it is much more rewarding and changes are more flexible, resulting in a personalised system.

It is much better,if one can add a bit of fundamental knowledge in their DIY cable experiences in order to converge and understand faster the quite obvious possible reasons.
Now it is also up to anyone to keep closed minded and keep refuting science.
I have mixed respectful and sad feelings for example when reading about ferrites experiments on top of cables for treating obvious EMC equipment issues...
Keep equalizing and/or injecting HF noise inside your DIY cables I don't care.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 2:16 PM Post #1,028 of 2,686

JaeYoon

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have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ? even after trying to coax someone to do it.
there is no proof to say the differences dont exist, the studies that suggest there is can be analysed and the broken down pretty easily to explain why. The deniers are narrow-minded, they take their own inability to hear (with ears and/or brain) as 'truth' and reinforce this idea with any weak evidence they can find. some mean well and I respect that, unfortunately they are perpetuated by measurements which are only a guide and not the final verdict on sound... measurements are used in so many different areas other than cables so you'd expect they'd have figured that out by now.

there is no harm in someone building a HQ cable that will let them see if they can hear a difference, they will learn to build and repair cables from doing this, that is a valuable skill for anyone. The immediate response from either side should be ''build a cable and see for yourself'', and end this worthless discussion.

and yes price can be a factor, but obviously where you put $2000 is what matters, you need the experience/advice to know how to make the most of it.
DIY is a slower process but can be cheaper with the right guidance, it is much more rewarding and changes are more flexible, resulting in a personalised system.
I'm curious though? Do you have any studies or peer reviewed research that shows that a multitude of audio cables tested and differences tested?

I'm curious as well about that measurements are not a valid test for testing audio cables. So for example, let's say you have completed two DIY cables with different materials of your choice. Someone buys them from you and measures them (uses same transducers and volume matches both) and records both into a microphone and creates measurements and sees they look very the same or extremely similar.
What are some sounds that can't be measured?

I'm not here to say audio cable differences don't exist. I also want to see your side of the story.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 2:25 PM Post #1,029 of 2,686

sonitus mirus

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have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ? even after trying to coax someone to do it.
there is no proof to say the differences dont exist, the studies that suggest there is can be analysed and the broken down pretty easily to explain why. The deniers are narrow-minded, they take their own inability to hear (with ears and/or brain) as 'truth' and reinforce this idea with any weak evidence they can find. some mean well and I respect that, unfortunately they are perpetuated by measurements which are only a guide and not the final verdict on sound... measurements are used in so many different areas other than cables so you'd expect they'd have figured that out by now.

there is no harm in someone building a HQ cable that will let them see if they can hear a difference, they will learn to build and repair cables from doing this, that is a valuable skill for anyone. The immediate response from either side should be ''build a cable and see for yourself'', and end this worthless discussion.

and yes price can be a factor, but obviously where you put $2000 is what matters, you need the experience/advice to know how to make the most of it.
DIY is a slower process but can be cheaper with the right guidance, it is much more rewarding and changes are more flexible, resulting in a personalised system.

Studies? This is well-understood physics and mathematics. Don't expect to find some thesis called Principia Filum.

Here, knock your socks off! Plug in some values on any applicable calculator and see how tiny the audible change might be with different types of cables and properties.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm

The ridiculousness of your position is that you seem wholly ignorant with regards to any established science on the subject matter.
 
Sep 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM Post #1,030 of 2,686

bigshot

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have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ?

We have a pinned post for that. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/

The difference between a great system and a mediocre system has nothing to do with money. It takes knowing how audio reproduction and perception works and optimizing the things that matter. Everything doesn't matter. A wire is a wire as long as it's the right wire for the job. If you have money to spend, spend it on transducers and your listening room and the music you listen to. You can spend it on wires and electronics, but you're going to be spending money without improving the sound quality any.

Too often people come to internet forums to debate, when they should be coming here to listen and learn. You've got folks here who can give you terrific advice if you ask the right questions. But the one you are stuck on here is the wrong one.
 
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Sep 16, 2018 at 3:04 AM Post #1,031 of 2,686

gregorio

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[1] have you noticed there hasnt been a single study posted ? even after trying to coax someone to do it.
[2] there is no proof to say the differences dont exist, the studies that suggest there is can be analysed and the broken down pretty easily to explain why.
[3] The deniers are narrow-minded, [3a] they take their own inability to hear (with ears and/or brain) as 'truth' and reinforce this idea with any weak evidence they can find.

1. Of course we've noticed!! You've made the claim that differences are audible, differences way too small to be audible but where's your reliable evidence? Even after trying to coax you to do it, even after you yourself stated it was necessary according to "Science 101". After being accused of hypocrisy, your response is even more outrageous hypocrisy? This is the sound science forum, NOT the "Guinness world record for hypocrisy" forum!!!

2. That is a complete lie! There is tons of science and reliable evidence on exactly what differences exist and exactly why, and, there has been for decades, nearly a century in fact. As Sonitus mirus stated, this is very well understood mathematics and physics. Even if you can't be bothered to look any of it up or are incapable of understanding it, simple logic should tell you this is the case. The telecoms industry was worth many billions of dollar even before the second world war, without an excellent understanding of analogue signal transmission through cables this massive industry would simply not have existed.

3. The cable believers are astonishingly narrow-minded and, ignorant to boot! Too narrow-minded to accept the ridiculously overwhelming evidence, too ignorant to know or even try to understand the actual facts and science.
3a. They take their own gullibility, inability to eliminate biases and marketing pseudo-science "as truth and reinforce this idea" with absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER. The best they can offer is some vague notion involving magic/mystical properties which even they can't explain and which both demonstrably and logically can't and don't exist! Such a superlative example of hypocrisy really deserves some recognition from Guinness or the Oxford Dictionary!! :)
some mean well and I respect that, unfortunately they are perpetuated by measurements which are only a guide and not the final verdict on sound...

Not satisfied with your attempt at the world record for hypocrisy, you're also going for the world record in utter made-up nonsense, impressive! Again, even if you are incapable of understanding the basic facts, simple logic should indicate your statement is ridiculous nonsense. Measurements are obviously NOT "only a guide" because the very act of recording and reproducing sound IS the act of measuring (and converting) sound. So, measurements absolutely are and absolutely MUST be, by definition, the final verdict on recorded and reproduced sound. What's truly astonishing is not just that you don't seem to understand this simple, basic fact of recording and reproducing sound but that you continue to fail to understand it and lie/misrepresent it, even after it's been explained to you! How is that even possible? And, if that's not bad enough, you're then condescending/patronising about those who do have the intellectual ability to understand "simple, basic facts" and are apparently completely unaware of how incredibly foolish that makes you appear.

There are no published scientific studies I'm aware of specifically regarding the audibility of cable differences. There's no point, in all controlled tests no audible differences have been detected, even by the most vociferous of cable believers themselves but most importantly, the exceptionally well established science dictates there can't be. For the same reason, can you provide any scientific studies that the Earth is not flat? Does this mean that the Earth IS flat? Despite your refusal to answer the question, following your logic you must believe the Earth is flat or at the very least, be "open-minded" that it could be flat. You honestly think that a science/fact based forum is a good place to argue such an ignorant opinion, that you won't be viewed as some sort of "nutter"?

So OP, you can see there is simply no convincing some people. Logic, simple basic facts, well established, indisputable science, overwhelming evidence, none of it makes the slightest difference to those who are too narrow-minded, ignorant and/or incapable of rational/logical thought, for whom irrational belief trumps everything. There will always be some who cannot be convinced that the Earth is not flat.

G
 
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Sep 16, 2018 at 6:21 AM Post #1,032 of 2,686

71 dB

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A wire is a wire as long as it's the right wire for the job.

That's the only sentence this thread needs. You can't say it better than that.
 
Sep 16, 2018 at 6:33 AM Post #1,033 of 2,686

Whazzzup

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That's the only sentence this thread needs. You can't say it better than that.

Brilliant, on that note another wire for the job
 
Sep 16, 2018 at 8:11 AM Post #1,034 of 2,686

moriez

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@gregorio , your brain is blessed. I'm starting to think you can be seen as a teacher. Take as a rare very hard to earn compliment. I much admire your and also a few others rational and knowledge. The reason is that it's on a whole different level and I mean lightyears away from mine. I struggle in here. With that said, you'll make a great teacher when you manage to exclude those moments of irritated emotion shining through in some of your phrases. In my opinion it takes away from being able to pick up the content like a signal jammer. Could be down to how I process what's to read. Heartfelt constructively meant feedback!

On topic I'm not sure what point is there to make. I definitely think science can't be messed with. I sure couldn't. Totally acceptant of psychological effects like placebo and expectation bias and the first to admit proper blind listening tests may result in any number of eye-opening surprises. This sums up one side of the story as I see it. And yet I can listen to three in perfect working order different brand headphone cables of mine and clearly positively identify a difference. Sharpness, hazyness such kind of things. Could be the result of a 'outside design specifications' build but I don't care about specs as long as it's known to be safe. If it sounds more up my alley it is better.

A question for the 'makes no difference' guys. Can those who back their claim honestly say they properly blind test every time or would they honestly be willing to participate? No, not trying to set a date but I'm stuck with the thought some are so firmly rooted clamping on to the scientific side it seems a perfect basis for being biased. Bias chooses no side no matter where you stand. That's by the way what I meant with being open-minded besides inexperienced newcomers who shall read statements like 'cables don't matter'. This makes me remember the bigger conclusion I like to draw which actually goes beyond the thread and beyond the forum: state your own point of view but do not give the impression it's universally accepted or even a few persons deep. I'm not talking about science because I don't have the weight to dispute any of it though I haven't seen a flat nor a round shaped earth with my own eyes. I'm talking let the ears do the math (pun intended) as objective as possible without the need for reasoning.
 
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Sep 16, 2018 at 9:51 AM Post #1,035 of 2,686

JaeYoon

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@moriez
That would be cool to have a blind test. Though it can probably only be reliably done at home if someone really has mindset to do it. First they would need to actually spend money on a ABX switcher and money for perhaps $10 -$20+ cable off Amazon. Monoprice that @bigshot recommended could definitely do it.

But it's probably more better at a head-fi meet. So someone will have a table with a Monoprice HQ cable for around $17.

Anyone can bring their own cable whether it's a DIY cable or a purchased cable. First, they would need to be blindfolded. The reason for this is @gregorio mentioned something really important I learned a long time ago called the McGurk effect.

Basically, no matter what if someone sees their cable during testing. Their mind could be biased and say "nope like I said before on the thread, my cable makes the treble more sparkly with a punchy Bass, and timbre is much more realistic." McGurk effects explains that people can believe in things they want to hear and see. "There's just no way some basic wire can perform great." Hence it will sound bad to the person with their own wire.

However, if they couldn't see which cable is which, it would force them to be completely honest. We would also put a blanket on top of both cables and cut a hole so the Listener can flip the A/B switch. We will also need someone to test both cables to make sure both are at the correct level and properly volume matched.

@bigshot also mentioned salesmen promoting audio cables by increasing the volume on the system with the cable they want to sell. And lower the volume on other system to promote the sale and introduce differences.

Maybe some other recommendations others can give, but this is not an easy test. It will require the person submit to a test that they intend to learn and not be "winning".
 

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