How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
May 9, 2010 at 6:58 PM Post #526 of 2,696

cegras

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Your post is a lovely demonstration of how anti-cable people abuse science as proof of their arguments.  You talk about speaker cables and link to a page about why aftermarket speaker cables are BS, yet use this to generalise all cables.  OOPS!  This kind of attitude makes it no more worth discussing than discussing spirituality in a forum full of religious fanatics.

 
Seriously? Seriously?
 
 
May 9, 2010 at 7:59 PM Post #528 of 2,696

Head Injury

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A thread like this, in a forum like this, is kinda like telling the guys at Shelby Super Cars that horsepower doesn't matter. A bit silly, IMO.


No. It's more akin to telling a snorkel enthusiast that it doesn't matter if the air pipe is 99.999% oxygen free silver or plain plastic.
 
The analogy you used is more like telling us that amping doesn't matter. It does, though to an arguable degree.
 
May 9, 2010 at 8:00 PM Post #529 of 2,696
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Can I ask what the difference between speaker cable and interconnects would be? Or why one would change the sound and one wouldn't?
 
Headphone cables as well, of course. And the internal wirings of amps, because some people prefer silver or something for those too.


Very loosely, speakers are low impedance, require high current and low voltage.  Headphones are high(er) impedance, require low(er) current and higher voltage.  Consequently, the types of wire used for each is different, though using 18AWG wire, which is just about speaker cable or power cable (!), for headphones, is pretty funny.  The more current, the thicker the wire required, which is why power lines are relatively thick.  It's more likely that large voltage swings would be affected by the quality of audio components, and less so, say, speaker cable that carries a large current.
 
The problem with this kind of discussion on here is that it's pretty far removed from science, involved in proposing theories, methodologies of testing, possible errors, performing experiments and writing them up correctly, but just people arguing about things they read online and taking sides because it suites their desire to be right, not to find out or know the truth.  Unfortunately and presumably as a result, the people who are heavily involved in actual DBT testing and whatnot don't seem to be posting any more because of this.  
 
May 9, 2010 at 8:01 PM Post #530 of 2,696

Shike

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Glad my ears don't get over questioned when listening to dacs, amps and sources and be told that it is just my imagination or I may still be using an ipod hp jack out to the white earbuds.......other than that it is just placebo because you can see the earphones are different and there is this cool toy between it ect. ect......and besides you can't trust yourself from fooling you, so just chuck that ridiculous hobby why don't you.  Can you believe people are actually tricking you into headphone amplifiers and dacs!  They come build in.

Your premise is faulty. We can measure substantial difference between transducers and DBT them. We can't, on the other hand, for cables of any reasonable quality.
 
As for amps and dacs, they've been discussed various times too.
 
May 9, 2010 at 8:03 PM Post #531 of 2,696

dallan

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Quote:
Glad my ears don't get over questioned when listening to dacs, amps and sources and be told that it is just my imagination or I may still be using an ipod hp jack out to the white earbuds.......other than that it is just placebo because you can see the earphones are different and there is this cool toy between it ect. ect......and besides you can't trust yourself from fooling you, so just chuck that ridiculous hobby why don't you.  Can you believe people are actually tricking you into headphone amplifiers and dacs!  They come build in.

Your premise is faulty. We can measure substantial difference between transducers and DBT them. We can't, on the other hand, for cables of any reasonable quality.
 
As for amps and dacs, they've been discussed various times too.


Uh huh.
 
May 9, 2010 at 8:28 PM Post #532 of 2,696

Head Injury

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Very loosely, speakers are low impedance, require high current and low voltage.  Headphones are high(er) impedance, require low(er) current and higher voltage.  Consequently, the types of wire used for each is different, though using 18AWG wire, which is just about speaker cable or power cable (!), for headphones, is pretty funny.  The more current, the thicker the wire required, which is why power lines are relatively thick.  It's more likely that large voltage swings would be affected by the quality of audio components, and less so, say, speaker cable that carries a large current.
 
The problem with this kind of discussion on here is that it's pretty far removed from science, involved in proposing theories, methodologies of testing, possible errors, performing experiments and writing them up correctly, but just people arguing about things they read online and taking sides because it suites their desire to be right, not to find out or know the truth.  Unfortunately and presumably as a result, the people who are heavily involved in actual DBT testing and whatnot don't seem to be posting any more because of this.  


Okay, that's headphone cable. Do interconnects follow the same rules? It's the amp doing all the voltage swinging and the like, so interconnects shouldn't matter if voltage is what changes. Yet people hear differences in those. And I also think your logic is flawed in assuming that since headphone cables are different and perhaps more likely to have an effect, then any chance of the differences being placebo is out the window. Or so you made it sound with your last post.

I find this debate to be very scientific. Most of the people simply taking sides are the ones who believe, because they don't have the science to back it up. I'd like to see some DBTs of interconnects and headphone cables, since we already have plenty speaker cables to, in my opinion, omit their audible differences. Unfortunately interconnects and especially headphone cables are harder to test for various reasons. We can discuss methods for testing those, if anyone's interested.
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This has to be the most constructive post I've ever read on Head-Fi.
 
May 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM Post #533 of 2,696

dallan

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Quote:
.

This has to be the most constructive post I've ever read on Head-Fi.


Thank you.  I just don't have much to say to him about it and i don't want to get into an argument about what I hear or how i spend my money on my system.  I hear a difference or I would never have gone for the things I have.  I can tell you that there is one type of cable that I have not heard a difference in and I wasted my money, that is my usb interconnect to my dac.  If i had placebo effect, I would insist there was a difference in that too.  If there is a slight one I can't hear it.  On my headphones recables the difference is extreme though between copper and silver on both the ones that i can remove and go back and forth(for the HD800 and HD650).  If you or anyone else doesn't like or doesn't believe it then i could care less so just "uh huh",,,,,there wasn't much more for me to say about it. 
 
I have worked like crazy to get a sound I like out of my system and I encourage you and the other with his comments to do the same, if you don't think cable changes anything, then put your cash toward a different component that you can hear a difference, but beware someone else may not.
 
May 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM Post #534 of 2,696

Blasto_Brandino

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I don't buy the cables I buy for audio quality, I buy them for cosmetic reasons, I had a Kimber PBJ cable made for my HD650's Why? because it looks good, and they WON'T break like the stock one's do.
 
May 10, 2010 at 12:10 AM Post #535 of 2,696

upstateguy

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Quote:
Glad my ears don't get over questioned when listening to dacs, amps and sources and be told that it is just my imagination or I may still be using an ipod hp jack out to the white earbuds.......other than that it is just placebo because you can see the earphones are different and there is this cool toy between it ect. ect......and besides you can't trust yourself from fooling you, so just chuck that ridiculous hobby why don't you.  Can you believe people are actually tricking you into headphone amplifiers and dacs!  They come build in.


People have been working this scam for hundreds of years......
 
orig.jpg



 
 
May 10, 2010 at 12:15 AM Post #536 of 2,696

Head Injury

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Thank you.  I just don't have much to say to him about it and i don't want to get into an argument about what I hear or how i spend my money on my system.  I hear a difference or I would never have gone for the things I have.  I can tell you that there is one type of cable that I have not heard a difference in and I wasted my money, that is my usb interconnect to my dac.  If i had placebo effect, I would insist there was a difference in that too.  If there is a slight one I can't hear it.  On my headphones recables the difference is extreme though between copper and silver on both the ones that i can remove and go back and forth(for the HD800 and HD650).  If you or anyone else doesn't like or doesn't believe it then i could care less so just "uh huh",,,,,there wasn't much more for me to say about it. 
 
I have worked like crazy to get a sound I like out of my system and I encourage you and the other with his comments to do the same, if you don't think cable changes anything, then put your cash toward a different component that you can hear a difference, but beware someone else may not.


See, you should have posted this before, instead of "Uh huh". This is, no sarcasm intended, a very good post. It's also one echoed by severals others in both camps already, so please don't think that all the scientists are trying to take away your right to enjoy cables. I can't remember if I posted this thought before or not, but I've certainly agreed with it.
 
For me, my money is better spent elsewhere until it can be proved that cables can at least change the signal by an audible degree and significantly enough that it could be subjectively considered an "improvement". My purchase of the LC-1 cable from BJC did nothing to my ears, which may not be the sharpest but could certainly make out a worthy difference between the uDAC and a sound card. And if a $38 does absolutely nothing, then I do not trust handing over $500 for something that "will, we promise".

You are free to spend on what you want. Whether or not the change is real, if you can hear it then it may be worth it to you. I didn't hear it, and I'd like to understand why.
Quote:
I don't buy the cables I buy for audio quality, I buy them for cosmetic reasons, I had a Kimber PBJ cable made for my HD650's Why? because it looks good, and they WON'T break like the stock one's do.


Same reason I bought my LC-1. If it doesn't make my music sound better, then at least it makes me feel more confident. I also love the look of the tech-flex, the ridiculously thick cables, and the massive, toothed RCA connectors that are almost as big as the uDAC they're plugged in to. Maybe I need a bigger DAC 
biggrin.gif

 
Man, I sure wish I had rheumatism. That bottle looks snazzy.
 
May 10, 2010 at 12:33 AM Post #537 of 2,696

dallan

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"Improvement" for any change is subjective and the change for me on headphone cables is tough to tell if it is improvement at times or just different.  For me, the HD800 stock cables that I believe are silver coated or whatever are more transparent than my aftermarket but sound thin and sort of shrill where as my aftermarket are why fuller but it took me a bit of time to accept the lack of transparency that is actually very important to me.  There is sort of a head burn in for headphones and components and I have had to go thru that with cables and then go back to the originals to see the difference and try to tell which I like better.  To say they make no difference is hard for me to accept because I actually have to get used to the sound change to even see if I appreciate the sound more.  
 
Some cables or areas to change cables make a different level of change to my ears, like i said the usb cable did little or nothing that I could hear.  Headphone recables do the most, and maybe speaker cable.  Interconnects don't seem a huge difference, maybe some but I would have to revisit that one in all fairness because I went thru that testing a long time ago.  Oh ya, for some reason, I heard a huge difference in the digital coaxes going to my dac from my usb converter or from my source, and I don't know why that was such a difference but it was very apparent.  
 
So it is a mixed bag for me, some areas the cable changes seem dramatic and some not at all.....and some changes when they happen may not be to my taste either.  If it was placebo I think i would hear it everywhere and i would hear "improvement".  
 
So maybe there is a post that explains it again with more (possibly unneeded) information.  
 
May 10, 2010 at 1:57 AM Post #539 of 2,696

momomo6789

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Quote:
I don't buy the cables I buy for audio quality, I buy them for cosmetic reasons, I had a Kimber PBJ cable made for my HD650's Why? because it looks good, and they WON'T break like the stock one's do.


you never know hd6x0 plugs hate me for some reason.
 
 
 
on the point of $200 alo lods.
 
wire cost cant be over 3$/ft so
 
$3 for wire
$3 for lod
$4.90 for the 3.5mm plug . at this price why not a viablue 3.5mm
confused_face(1).gif

$5 for shipping <--- Nvm he charges extra for shipping O_o
$1 box
 
tools to build a lod cost around $40
 
time spent idk 25 mins max on a lod.
 
$178 of win, more then how much i pay my lawyer a hour =/
 
not to mention regular lods are just about the easiest things ever to build.
 
 
 
 
 

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