How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
Sep 22, 2021 at 8:57 AM Post #2,611 of 2,686

bfreedma

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Few weeks ago I went to an audio shop and I was lucky enough to try out MAD24 with different PWaudio cables. And here's my thoughts.

I only heard MAD24 once before that and it was a month prior in AV show, which is very noisy on its own. And I have no recent experience of PWaudio cable rolling. I never heard of Gold 24, Monile, Antigoma and it's feat. 60 varient before. The salesperson purposefully didn't tell me anything about the cables, their name, prices, their materials etc, beforehand and told me just listen and tell him my thoughts. The Gold 24 cable aside, this is pretty much as blind as it gets, as there is no price bias, and I can't even tell which cable is which just by the looks because they are all almost identical.

In the few hours of testing, I was able to tell the difference between Gold 24 and the rest pretty easily. I can feel the separation and space between the sound being slightly different and it sounds more revealing, though not by a significant margin.

The rest of the cables aren't as clear of a cut. I was able to tell the slight difference between feat 60 and it's original shielding version. One had slightly more distinct sound while the feat. 60 sounds a little more musical. However when I try to find the difference between Monile and Antigoma, I couldn't. There is maybe a very slight sound difference but I couldn't pinpoint it consistently. At first I thought he just throws an extra pair of Antigoma to throw me off. I was only convinced after he show me the name of the cable. All these cables did show cables do make a difference, at least on the analog side.

And there is absolutely no way I will know the difference between the cables in everyday use as I was testing them in the best case scenario possible, a pretty quiet room that has a lower noise floor than my home.


Try again double blind - the results will be different.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 9:41 AM Post #2,612 of 2,686

Lumithium

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Try again double blind - the results will be different.
The difference between the Gold and the rest of the cables are noticable enough that I know for certain that anyone with good attention to details and a quiet enough room will be able to tell they sound different after a session of critical listening. And I only know the names of the cables after listening to all of them and expressed my thoughts on them, as the copper cables I tested looks identical, it would be a pretty big coincidence for me to randomly pick a cable I never heard of, and have my impressions mostly match up with the description of the difference between at least the 2 antigona cables and not swapped over?

If you firmly believe they don't make a difference then good for you :smiley:, no need to spend extra bucks on the cables.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 9:46 AM Post #2,613 of 2,686

castleofargh

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Try again double blind - the results will be different.
Or not. we can't know for sure. But I wouldn't trust a salesperson to setup a test for me. I don't want to fall into paranoia, but BS cable tests have been uncovered a few times.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:00 AM Post #2,614 of 2,686

bfreedma

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The difference between the Gold and the rest of the cables are noticable enough that I know for certain that anyone with good attention to details and a quiet enough room will be able to tell they sound different after a session of critical listening. And I only know the names of the cables after listening to all of them and expressed my thoughts on them, as the copper cables I tested looks identical, it would be a pretty big coincidence for me to randomly pick a cable I never heard of, and have my impressions mostly match up with the description of the difference between at least the 2 antigona cables and not swapped over?

If you firmly believe they don't make a difference then good for you :smiley:, no need to spend extra bucks on the cables.

Try again double blind - the results will be different.

Sorry, but your sighted subjective opinion does not invalidate known science. And congratulations on being the 1000th visitor to Sound Science making this claim, being unable to support it, then smarmily posting ”good for you- you can save money”

Actually, the joke is on you for buying into unsupported claims, not investigating the actual physics/electrics involved, then spending vastly more than necessary.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:02 AM Post #2,615 of 2,686

bfreedma

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Or not. we can't know for sure. But I wouldn't trust a salesperson to setup a test for me. I don't want to fall into paranoia, but BS cable tests have been uncovered a few times.

All true. I guess I never considered that anyone seriously pursuing this topic would ever let someone with a financial stake in the outcome set up and proctor the testing.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:20 AM Post #2,616 of 2,686

Lumithium

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Try again double blind - the results will be different.

Sorry, but your sighted subjective opinion does not invalidate known science. And congratulations on being the 1000th visitor to Sound Science making this claim, being unable to support it, then smarmily posting ”good for you- you can save money”

Actually, the joke is on you for buying into unsupported claims, not investigating the actual physics/electrics involved, then spending vastly more than necessary.
Not sure how I am spending vastly more than necessary when I haven't bought a single aftermarket cable ever :smiley:,all the ones I have are bundles from other gears and I never bothered to do cable rolling, as I'd save the money towards the next gear.

I am only speaking of my experience because that is the closest experience I have for cables, it is definitely a subjective thing and I don't know how it is the wrong feeling? Aren't sound subjective in the first place?
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:27 AM Post #2,617 of 2,686

Lumithium

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All true. I guess I never considered that anyone seriously pursuing this topic would ever let someone with a financial stake in the outcome set up and proctor the testing.
As for this I know for someone whose job is to sell stuff would definitely have the interest to try to get me to buy the most expensive cables, this point I do understand. I was just sharing my experience on the matter, that's all.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:34 AM Post #2,618 of 2,686

bfreedma

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Not sure how I am spending vastly more than necessary when I haven't bought a single aftermarket cable ever :smiley:,all the ones I have are bundles from other gears and I never bothered to do cable rolling, as I'd save the money towards the next gear.

I am only speaking of my experience because that is the closest experience I have for cables, it is definitely a subjective thing and I don't know how it is the wrong feeling? Aren't sound subjective in the first place?

EE/physics aren’t a “subjective thing”.

Try again double blind - the results will be different.

In this subforum (and this one only), supporting objective evidence is expected when making exceptional claims.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 10:37 AM Post #2,619 of 2,686

Lumithium

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EE/physics aren’t a “subjective thing”.

Try again double blind - the results will be different.

In this subforum (and this one only), supporting objective evidence is expected when making exceptional claims.
Points taken. Maybe one day I can get my hands on some measurements and end the debate :smiley:
 
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Sep 22, 2021 at 10:47 AM Post #2,620 of 2,686

bfreedma

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Points taken. Maybe one day I can get my hands on some measurements and end the debate :smiley:

The measurements already exist - to date, other than edge cases and intentionally borked boutique cables, there is no support for cables sounding different based on materials. Minor differences in conductivity would require far longer cables than would be found in home audio to be audible.

The debate is over and has been for some time. Unfortunately, the cable industry and many consumers ignore hard evidence that doesn’t fit their profit motives and customer narrative.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 11:01 AM Post #2,621 of 2,686

Lumithium

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The measurements already exist - to date, other than edge cases and intentionally borked boutique cables, there is no support for cables sounding different based on materials. Minor differences in conductivity would require far longer cables than would be found in home audio to be audible.

The debate is over and has been for some time. Unfortunately, the cable industry and many consumers ignore hard evidence that doesn’t fit their profit motives and customer narrative.
Interesting. For measurements I just mean an FR curve.

Anyways, other than conductivity, what about the surface area, solder material and methods?
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 11:08 AM Post #2,622 of 2,686

chef8489

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Interesting. For measurements I just mean an FR curve.

Anyways, other than conductivity, what about the surface area, solder material and methods?

What about them? If they measure identical what difference does any of that make to sound? If the exact same information or electricity is going from point a through the cable to point B the dac or the drivers be it digital or analogue cables then none of that matters. it will be the dac or the speakers or drivers that makes the sound. Ie the dac will decode the digital signal and make it analog. Then the analog is sent via an electrical signal down wires to a driver that turns the electrical signal into sound waves. So there is no sound traveling down wires in either case.

The whole idea that cable material, construction and so on can have a result on sound stage, warmth, resolution, and these other claims is just ludicrous. There is no sound passing through the cable for it to alter.
 
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Sep 22, 2021 at 5:58 PM Post #2,623 of 2,686

bigshot

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A signal is a signal. You put a signal into one end of the wire and it comes out the other end of the wire. You compare what came out to what went in. If there's no audible difference, they are for all intents and purposes the same. There is no reason to expect that the frequency response would change after passing through a home audio cable. If it does, you are using the wrong wire or the cable is defective by manufacture or design.

This particular question has been answered since the 1920s at least, maybe earlier.
 
Sep 22, 2021 at 8:43 PM Post #2,624 of 2,686

redrol

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I had a guy send me a $600 dollar audio cable for some expensive IEMs that I tested vs a no-name $1 cord. No differences. I used an IEM I have been listening to for 2 years to determine if there were differences. There are none.

Cables do nothing and its best to waste your money on hyped headphones at the very least.
 
Sep 23, 2021 at 1:58 AM Post #2,625 of 2,686

Maxx134

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Sure, crosstalk is a thing. For some specific tasks, it’s something we have to take very seriously, and for some cables, we even have to be careful about short lengths of straight wires while terminating them. And then for other stuff, it’s irrelevant until crosstalk reaches a massive amount.
IMO, How the aliens managed to kidnapped me, should be on our minds after we have been able to confirm that aliens exist, and that I was kidnapped

Yes, we tend to forget that it was encouraged, (in past) when making old, "point-to-point" wiring, that not to have paralleled wiring, and the more messy, the better.
They didn't want paralleled run wires.
Twisted was encouraged.

So I dunno why we acting like this wires affecting another is unknown, that wiring doesn't affect anything.
Wait, Actually I just realized that is more electronics design issue, and not a sound issue. 😅

Also, if you wanna mix aliens into the discussion:
They are technically regarded by government as "interdimensional" phenomena, not "extraterrestrial", so what that basically means, is that they are from this world, spirit world, the wandering spirits, seeking the ruin of souls. Disembodied spirits historically originate from the deaths of all the nephilim from either the great flood or wars, because they're is no place for them yet. Heaven & Hell is currently reserved for humans & fallen angels, not abominations.
Its a hard pill to swallow, if you wanna investigate & go there.
But I rather speculate on wires.🙃

, not investigating the actual physics/electrics involved,
The problem is that when a consumer goes to check this, they do not look at audio engineering research and testing.

Instead, they end up looking at the vast literature posted online by cable companies, with their cool pseudoscience animations of electrical currents flowing and all manner of showcasing their cables...


The debate is over and has been for some time. Unfortunately, the cable industry and many consumers ignore hard evidence that doesn’t fit their profit motives and customer narrative

Another issue is thats most of those old tests did not use pure 7N silver cable, or OCC copper cable, or GOLD 🤤 plated silver! 🤑🤩
That's what the cable companies are using to lure consumers in!

I remember rewiring a tube amp that (already) sounded great... Little did I know, it was using the cheapest, most brittle stranded Tin wire I ever seen! It practically crumbled on my fingers! Broke off the board when I touched it!
Although the cheap input wire was really well jacketed and shielded (with a foil).

I replaced all wire with some "nice" wiring...
Maybe the electrons liked it..😋
 
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