How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
Oct 29, 2020 at 2:02 PM Post #1,771 of 3,452

Kentajalli

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I'll take the enormous corpus of scientific data and papers on the subject from AES over your feelings on the subject. If we could ever actually do this test, you would lose. I say this with 100% certainty.
I already admit defeat!
Silly me, When you said "I will be disrespectful" and set a bet, foolishly I assumed it was all in a light-hearted manner, with a smiley on your face!
I know now you were serious - so my hats off to you, you won, thank god you can not sue me for the grand - nothing to stop you do a victory lap.
You were correct, my Chord Mojo sounds as bad (or as good) as my Huawei phone with one of those USB-C to 3.5mm jacks attached.
Anybody out there wanna buy a Mojo, only thrown to a wall once!
in good condition . . .
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 4:19 PM Post #1,772 of 3,452

bigshot

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When two things sound the same, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are both defective. In fact, odds are it is the opposite. If two different things are putting out degraded sound, it is VERY unlikely that they are putting out exactly the same kind of degradation. It's more likely that they are both putting out perfect sound.

I think it would be useful for you to invest $50 in a switch box with level adjustment to conduct a blind comparison yourself. I think you would learn a lot and would understand better what you are being told here in sound science.
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 4:36 PM Post #1,774 of 3,452

Kentajalli

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When two things sound the same, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are both defective. In fact, odds are it is the opposite. If two different things are putting out degraded sound, it is VERY unlikely that they are putting out exactly the same kind of degradation. It's more likely that they are both putting out perfect sound.

I think it would be useful for you to invest $50 in a switch box with level adjustment to conduct a blind comparison yourself. I think you would learn a lot and would understand better what you are being told here in sound science.
Believe me, I have - many times.
I have made such a box myself many years ago. Those days you could put a pot in there to adjust volume control, but now adays it is not so easy.
Do not assume I don't read science articles or don't understand them - I don't live in a commune praying to the god of hifi.
I design and build tube amps, so I should know a thing or two about the science that goes with hifi.
Testing, measuring is a wonderful tool - a limited tool, because every day science is advancing more , and our ability to test improves.
But those lovely graphs are not the final word!
remember the 70's ? when Radio shack latest amplifier had a frequency response of 20 - 20kHz within 0.00000001 dB? distortion figures of nano percent?
And it sounded rubbish? and it measured well - at the time!
And if you believe that today we have achieved the point where we can measure a DAC or an AMP so accurately and perfectly, that auditioning is no longer necessary.
If you hearing says otherwise, it must be your ears, or you are a fool.
I don't know what to say to that.
Why are we on a Hifi forum?
To each their own - enjoy your gear, and let others (such as imaginitive fools like me) enjoy theirs.

BTW two DAC's don't sound the same, that is my position - so your assertion does not apply here.
Neither do Amps.
 
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Oct 29, 2020 at 4:37 PM Post #1,775 of 3,452

bigshot

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Cables matter. As they are components. Components In any electronic related gear matter.

If everything in the world matters, then nothing matters. It's about priorities. My priority is sound quality I can hear with my decidedly human ears. You may judge quality by numbers on a page. That's fine. But you can't hear a difference in a blind test, so to me, it doesn't matter.
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 4:43 PM Post #1,776 of 3,452

KeithPhantom

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And it sounded rubbish? and it measured well - at the time!
Subjective impressions, too small of a sample size, and not enough information of the population size, measurements, and other dependant variables that may help us to make a better judgement. One thing you can do is to provide all measurements and components related to these. Also, consider the use case and other equipment that may be affecting these.
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 4:44 PM Post #1,777 of 3,452

bigshot

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Believe me, I have - many times.

Ah! I was assuming that you were just unaware. Now that you let me know that you have done controlled tests and you assert that you fully understand what we are saying, I will take you at your word and conclude that you are prevaricating for self aggrandizement. That is fine. You might find that you have a difficult time in this particular forum with that line of argument. We don't react well to logical fallacies and deliberate falsehoods around here. We don't invest our ego in our cochleas. Your attempt to impress is doomed to failure in Sound Science.

(Castle, I chose my words carefully to phrase that politely yet still get the general idea across. Hope it helps.)

Neither do Amps.

Kent, feel free to refer to the Stereo Review link in my signature file.
 
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Oct 29, 2020 at 4:48 PM Post #1,778 of 3,452

Kentajalli

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Ah! I was assuming that you were just unaware. Now that you let me know that you have done controlled tests, I will take you at your word and realize that you are prevaricating for self aggrandizement. That is fine. You might find that you have a difficult time in this particular forum with that line of argument. We don't react well to logical fallacies and deliberate falsehoods around here. Your attempt to impress is doomed to failure.

(Castle, I chose my words carefully to phrase that politely yet still get the general idea across. Hope it helps.)

Kent, feel free to refer to the Stereo Review link in my signature file.
too many long words in there - you lost me.
I was/am not trying to impress anyone - I stated an opinion, with a joke or two (with smiley faces to leave no doubt) - and so many enlightened, super scientific guru's had a go at me.
Lets move on.

stereo review link seems to be dead.
 
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Oct 29, 2020 at 4:48 PM Post #1,779 of 3,452

KeithPhantom

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And if you believe that today we have achieved the point where we can measure a DAC or an AMP so accurately and perfectly, that auditioning is no longer necessary.
If you hearing says otherwise, it must be your ears, or you are a fool.
Good luck playing music at 120 dB SPL just to hear defects at 0 or 1 dB SPL, your ears will thank you for that... Also, have a good time dealing with level-induced masking effect.
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 8:55 PM Post #1,780 of 3,452

colonelkernel8

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Cables matter. As they are components. Components In any electronic related gear matter.
Not at audible frequencies. Unless there is a capacitor or resistor or inductor soldered in line, then a cable will make no audible difference. In fact it's barely measureable up to 200kHz and beyond.
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 9:33 PM Post #1,781 of 3,452

PhonoPhi

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Not at audible frequencies. Unless there is a capacitor or resistor or inductor soldered in line, then a cable will make no audible difference. In fact it's barely measureable up to 200kHz and beyond.
Cables can matter, when their impedance (of which only resistance is of practical relevance) is comparable to the resistance of the circuit with the transducers, 1/8 is a good well-known/cited rule of thumb.

Now, many IEMs, for instance, have impedance below 16 Ohm, even below 10 Ohm (do not ask me why), and typical stock cables can be easily 1.5-2 Ohms. So when someone changes stock cable for the cable of the significantly lower resistance (0.5 Ohm or less) - the difference is there.

This difference can be even more drastic for multi-transducer IEMs, such as multi-BAs, with transducer resonances, where their impedance gets lower.
There changing the impedance of the cables can appreciably affect the frequency response.

I hope I am stating fairly obvious things for this forum, just to point out that "cables matter" can be quite real sometimes.

Another story is when "graphene" cables are sold to poor audiophiles :frowning2:
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 10:15 PM Post #1,782 of 3,452

szore

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Of course cables matter, what the hell are you hearing?
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 10:16 PM Post #1,783 of 3,452

bigshot

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You don't get much sound without cables!

Cables that aren't designed to be used for the purpose you are using them will definitely degrade sound. But you can't design a cable that sounds better than another properly designed cable. If you are connecting something with the proper Amazon basics cable, buying a fancy expensive cable isn't going to make it sound any better. If you buy equipment that is non-standard, you will have to buy the accessories that the manufacturer wants you to buy. That is a well known marketing trick. I personally don't buy equipment that is deliberately hobbled like that. There are too many good pieces of gear that follow the established standards.
 
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Oct 29, 2020 at 10:21 PM Post #1,784 of 3,452

szore

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You don't get much sound without cables!

Cables that aren't designed to be used for the purpose you are using them will definitely degrade sound. But you can't design a cable that sounds better than another properly designed cable. If you are connecting something with the proper Amazon basics cable, buying a fancy expensive cable isn't going to make it sound any better.
Define 'fancy' cable...Do you mean pure copper? What purity? Silver? Silver/copper hybrid? Because they all have different tonalities...
 
Oct 29, 2020 at 10:23 PM Post #1,785 of 3,452

bigshot

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Any cable that costs more than an Amazon basics cable. No, copper doesn't sound different than silver. The differences in conductivity don't add up to anything audible by human ears. Check out the pinned post at the top of this forum Testing Audiophile Myths for proof. I'm sure earlier posts in this thread have plenty of citations too if you would like to read a bit.

I think the thread title is the reason that this thread is like fly paper for people who have never been in Sound Science before. I wish it could be changed.
 
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