fanta
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Say for example a ~150 dollar USB DAC compared to the best selling audio cards advertised 'for gaming' and such, does it take a ~150 dollar card to match that DAC or less/more?
How do gaming sound cards measure up to dedicated DACs?
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Maniac
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I know this could sound like an ad for my stuff, but I have to say that sound card of similar price to an external DAC is going to be hard pressed to even come close to the sound quality of external DAC. Specs or not, external DAC of similar price will easily sound better than internal sound cards. Since the sound card in your computer is running with a handicap there (noisy PSU, electrically noisy enviroment).
IMHO, keep a card for gaming (if you do play games) and keep a card/DAC/whatever dedicated to music. Most game oriented cards (I don't think I need to say which company
) have a lot of optimization that makes it easy to produce sound effects, playing back all kind of sample rates all at once and so on. Yes it is better for games, but it really hurts if you have that in the way when you play music.
IMHO, keep a card for gaming (if you do play games) and keep a card/DAC/whatever dedicated to music. Most game oriented cards (I don't think I need to say which company
chelrob
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I think an e-mu 1212m can be had for $150.00 (or less). You'd be hard pressed to fing a $150.00 USB DAC to rival it, especially if you plan on recording in the future. You could run a gaming card and the 1212m in the same PC.
Yukon Trooper
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If you read around here on the forums you'll quickly discover that sound cards can rival external DAC's of much greater value. The reason is because the cards are mass produced and sold in mass quantities therefore the prices are much lower. External DAC's on the other hand are not exactly a popular item to the masses and therefore prices are much higher on units.
If your looking for a great gaming card and great music card then pick up the Prelude X-Fi or XtremeMusic X-Fi and do the mod found here on the website or have someone do it for you. The card would be about $70 on eBay and then you can order the op amps to do the mod as free samples from National Semiconductor. You can also replace the power filter capacitor by upgrading to a Black Gate unit which will cost you around $20 including shipping from Partsconnexion. This upgrade is optional compared to the op amps as the op amps are the main deciding factor of the sound enhancement. People that have done this mod has said it sounds better than the external DAC1 which is a $900 DAC. You do the math. The great part about the Prelude however is that it has the LM4562 op amps already installed on the card and they are socketed. This means you can change op amps till your hearts content and find all kinds of good sound signatures. The DAC in the Prelude is also better than the DAC found in the XtremeMusic.
These two options are the most cost effective and logical for someone who wants a card for gaming and music. Both have full EAX support for games and both will give you outstanding musical capabilities. I have the modded X-Fi XtremeMusic and it's great. I'm also picking up an external amp for my headphones to go with it. Cheers!
If your looking for a great gaming card and great music card then pick up the Prelude X-Fi or XtremeMusic X-Fi and do the mod found here on the website or have someone do it for you. The card would be about $70 on eBay and then you can order the op amps to do the mod as free samples from National Semiconductor. You can also replace the power filter capacitor by upgrading to a Black Gate unit which will cost you around $20 including shipping from Partsconnexion. This upgrade is optional compared to the op amps as the op amps are the main deciding factor of the sound enhancement. People that have done this mod has said it sounds better than the external DAC1 which is a $900 DAC. You do the math. The great part about the Prelude however is that it has the LM4562 op amps already installed on the card and they are socketed. This means you can change op amps till your hearts content and find all kinds of good sound signatures. The DAC in the Prelude is also better than the DAC found in the XtremeMusic.
These two options are the most cost effective and logical for someone who wants a card for gaming and music. Both have full EAX support for games and both will give you outstanding musical capabilities. I have the modded X-Fi XtremeMusic and it's great. I'm also picking up an external amp for my headphones to go with it. Cheers!
I've only heard one soundcard (a modded one at that), which could even be argued to be near the bottom of the $700-1200 class of external DAC's. That card was the RME HDSP 9632, a $600+ professional recording card.
The X-Fi, coming in somewhere in the realm of the EMU 0404 and 1212M is a nice sounding card. But, even modded, it ain't no DAC1
That said, a modded 0404 or X-Fi, certainly offers greater value than a DAC1 or the like, and is really all one needs if you haven't spent $1300+ on speakers/amp, or $600+ on headphones+amp (roughly speaking, based on new prices for items that come to mind which can exceed the resolution level of the aforementioned soundcards).
The X-Fi, coming in somewhere in the realm of the EMU 0404 and 1212M is a nice sounding card. But, even modded, it ain't no DAC1
That said, a modded 0404 or X-Fi, certainly offers greater value than a DAC1 or the like, and is really all one needs if you haven't spent $1300+ on speakers/amp, or $600+ on headphones+amp (roughly speaking, based on new prices for items that come to mind which can exceed the resolution level of the aforementioned soundcards).
Ogresmash
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How would you guys say the Wolfson DAC on the AV-710 measures up? Obviously it won't be competing with any mid or high end external DACs, but how much would I be crippling my Little Dot 2+ -> HD600 setup by using it instead of, say, an Entech?
As cheap as it is, it does quite well. IMO, I'd say the amp is doing more "crippling" than the AV710 in this case
Yukon Trooper
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Quote:
Some seem to think so but there is lots of subjectivity in this hobby. Not to mention placebo galore.
| Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The X-Fi, coming in somewhere in the realm of the EMU 0404 and 1212M is a nice sounding card. But, even modded, it ain't no DAC1
|
Some seem to think so but there is lots of subjectivity in this hobby. Not to mention placebo galore.
Maniac
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Quote:
I'm an avid modder myself, and I found that one thing is certain... there are much more people who prefer to have it all settled before they even open the packing box, most would not bother to change anything other than the interconnects and possibly the driver softwares. Which kinda limit the appeal of modding to most music lovers.
For those sound card that you mentioned. Well, if you only care what DAC IC it used, rather than the actual analog output, then sure, mass produced sound card do have it... the very high end DAC chip that is.
1212M itself is rather limited, and the ultra-high-spec DAC from CS is rather wasted by the supporting circuits around it. I'm saying from experience that the power supply circuit of the CS DAC there can basically be considered as botch job, and passive components around it is about the same. Not to mention the output OP amps and parts are about as bad as well. I know because I had evaluated one for modding, and had another in the lab for RMAA testing. One of the output we never use is the analog output of 1212M, it really need some help there.
Rather than modding 1212M for better analog output, we elected to use our DA-131 as the analog source when we are testing headphone amps (with digital signal coming from 1212M still). Yes, we are guilty of getting tired of modding from time to time.
As for swapping OPs, it is fun, but from my own experience, the passive components around the OP is much more fun... the effect is sometimes more shocking than swapping on a better OP. If anyone feel that they are done with OP rolling, another tip is simply solder the OP on without a socket. This is also fun too, since you get a fair performance boost without buying anything other than some copper braid to suck up the solder, and some solder to put the OP on directly. The distance of the part (usually capacitor) from the OP also have an interesting effect. (A lot of times I simply solder caps and resistors underneath OP and ICs to get the shortest possible wire length. Plus it looks neater from the top.)
As for Benchmark DAC1, I would say that the sonic signature isn't exactly what I prefer, but I suppose that is a matter of taste. I prefer Lavry Blue better, especially modded. Too bad it is not for me, but I modded that for a friend.
| Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you read around here on the forums you'll quickly discover that sound cards can rival external DAC's of much greater value. The reason is because the cards are mass produced and sold in mass quantities therefore the prices are much lower. External DAC's on the other hand are not exactly a popular item to the masses and therefore prices are much higher on units. If your looking for a great gaming card and great music card then pick up the Prelude X-Fi or XtremeMusic X-Fi and do the mod found here on the website or have someone do it for you. The card would be about $70 on eBay and then you can order the op amps to do the mod as free samples from National Semiconductor. You can also replace the power filter capacitor by upgrading to a Black Gate unit which will cost you around $20 including shipping from Partsconnexion. This upgrade is optional compared to the op amps as the op amps are the main deciding factor of the sound enhancement. People that have done this mod has said it sounds better than the external DAC1 which is a $900 DAC. You do the math. The great part about the Prelude however is that it has the LM4562 op amps already installed on the card and they are socketed. This means you can change op amps till your hearts content and find all kinds of good sound signatures. The DAC in the Prelude is also better than the DAC found in the XtremeMusic. These two options are the most cost effective and logical for someone who wants a card for gaming and music. Both have full EAX support for games and both will give you outstanding musical capabilities. I have the modded X-Fi XtremeMusic and it's great. I'm also picking up an external amp for my headphones to go with it. Cheers! |
I'm an avid modder myself, and I found that one thing is certain... there are much more people who prefer to have it all settled before they even open the packing box, most would not bother to change anything other than the interconnects and possibly the driver softwares. Which kinda limit the appeal of modding to most music lovers.
For those sound card that you mentioned. Well, if you only care what DAC IC it used, rather than the actual analog output, then sure, mass produced sound card do have it... the very high end DAC chip that is.
1212M itself is rather limited, and the ultra-high-spec DAC from CS is rather wasted by the supporting circuits around it. I'm saying from experience that the power supply circuit of the CS DAC there can basically be considered as botch job, and passive components around it is about the same. Not to mention the output OP amps and parts are about as bad as well. I know because I had evaluated one for modding, and had another in the lab for RMAA testing. One of the output we never use is the analog output of 1212M, it really need some help there.
Rather than modding 1212M for better analog output, we elected to use our DA-131 as the analog source when we are testing headphone amps (with digital signal coming from 1212M still). Yes, we are guilty of getting tired of modding from time to time.
As for swapping OPs, it is fun, but from my own experience, the passive components around the OP is much more fun... the effect is sometimes more shocking than swapping on a better OP. If anyone feel that they are done with OP rolling, another tip is simply solder the OP on without a socket. This is also fun too, since you get a fair performance boost without buying anything other than some copper braid to suck up the solder, and some solder to put the OP on directly. The distance of the part (usually capacitor) from the OP also have an interesting effect. (A lot of times I simply solder caps and resistors underneath OP and ICs to get the shortest possible wire length. Plus it looks neater from the top.)
As for Benchmark DAC1, I would say that the sonic signature isn't exactly what I prefer, but I suppose that is a matter of taste. I prefer Lavry Blue better, especially modded. Too bad it is not for me, but I modded that for a friend.
Maniac
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Quote:
I have modded a RME HDSP 9632 myself, also for that lucky friend.
The darn thing was the reason that I said that it is possible to get good sound from PC without anything external, but it would require some effort to do so.
It drives AKG's 240 series headphone directly, and did quite a good job at that. (forgot which 240, but all of them are a bear to drive properly anyways.) Not to mention the wealth of features and capability from the card. It is good, but it is costly too, especially after modding. (and to do anything more than moderate mod, you will lose the expansion slots in front and behind 9632...)
| Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've only heard one soundcard (a modded one at that), which could even be argued to be near the bottom of the $700-1200 class of external DAC's. That card was the RME HDSP 9632, a $600+ professional recording card. The X-Fi, coming in somewhere in the realm of the EMU 0404 and 1212M is a nice sounding card. But, even modded, it ain't no DAC1
That said, a modded 0404 or X-Fi, certainly offers greater value than a DAC1 or the like, and is really all one needs if you haven't spent $1300+ on speakers/amp, or $600+ on headphones+amp (roughly speaking, based on new prices for items that come to mind which can exceed the resolution level of the aforementioned soundcards). |
I have modded a RME HDSP 9632 myself, also for that lucky friend.
The darn thing was the reason that I said that it is possible to get good sound from PC without anything external, but it would require some effort to do so.
It drives AKG's 240 series headphone directly, and did quite a good job at that. (forgot which 240, but all of them are a bear to drive properly anyways.) Not to mention the wealth of features and capability from the card. It is good, but it is costly too, especially after modding. (and to do anything more than moderate mod, you will lose the expansion slots in front and behind 9632...)
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