How and why do members fall in love with second tier headphones?
May 7, 2015 at 3:38 AM Post #376 of 483

Redcarmoose

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You will also note just how effective he placed 4 groups all as 1st tier to 4th tier all in relation to price. He did not seem to get a negative response from readers using price as his method? Still he also shows which headphones excel at each genre with some expensive headphones not doing all genres.

The assumption is that the more expensive headphones are better. Still metal listeners are a little different and seem to be easy going and will follow at times. You would read about the opinions that some headphones are a great value for what they are. Still no one questioned the more expensive being better and top tier.

Lol.
 
May 7, 2015 at 4:58 AM Post #377 of 483

castleofargh

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yeah but price clearly doesn't work.
I mean the abyss? the only reall great thing about it is the price.
I didn't get to listen to all those headphones, but I would place several of them below my hd650 or even maybe below a dt880(and I'm talking specs, not taste).
the grado headphones in the top tier? well obviously not thanks to measurements.
 
that's why unless we define what is top tier, we can't answer to your question. put maybe 5 (or more if you feel like it) headphones in your own top tier, and then I can tell you why I don't own one.
biggrin.gif

 
May 7, 2015 at 6:52 AM Post #378 of 483

Redcarmoose

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yeah but price clearly doesn't work.
I mean the abyss? the only reall great thing about it is the price.
I didn't get to listen to all those headphones, but I would place several of them below my hd650 or even maybe below a dt880(and I'm talking specs, not taste).
the grado headphones in the top tier? well obviously not thanks to measurements.

that's why unless we define what is top tier, we can't answer to your question. put maybe 5 (or more if you feel like it) headphones in your own top tier, and then I can tell you why I don't own one. :D



It did work though for that thread, he also has HD650 as second tier.

The truth in the matter is if your a 16 year old and you get a nice set of headphones which stir you imagination, you would think that a place like Head-Fi would have one chart.

If you listen to metal you get a chart. It may or may not be the definitive chart, I just don't know? It is a start.
 
May 7, 2015 at 9:43 AM Post #379 of 483

vid

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He did not seem to get a negative response from readers using price as his method? Still he also shows which headphones excel at each genre with some expensive headphones not doing all genres.

 
His methodology got a negative response from me last year, and I believe my criticism was valid.
 
More important, I've made an argument in this thread specifically against the use of price as an indicator of sound quality. I'm not sure whether you're trying to counter that argument by saying that some other guy's used price as well, hence it must be a good method. But instead of saying that no one seemed to object to that method in some other thread, I do think you need to address the argument where it's actually given, i.e. here.
 
May 7, 2015 at 10:03 AM Post #380 of 483

maverickronin

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1: the onus is on you to prove that people fall in love with second tier headphones.

 
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but this is pretty much proven by the fact that people fall in love with Grados of any price.  Objectively, held up to any standard of fidelity that you could possibly conceive, they fail miserably.  Yet when I listen to them they don't sound half bad.  They're ever pretty damn good with some music. (until listening fatigue sets in anyway...)  Why is that?
 
I think it's the fundamental unnaturalness of headphones in the first place.  Essentially all music is recorded and mixed to played back on speakers.  I contend that listening to such music over headphones, with 100% channel separation and bypassing much of the individual's HRTF essentially destroys any concept of neutrality.  Nothing short of an advanced DSP can come close to reproducing the intended listening conditions over headphones.  Since so few people use such DSP, subjectivity reigns.
 
May 7, 2015 at 10:29 AM Post #381 of 483

Redcarmoose

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His methodology got a negative response from me last year, and I believe my criticism was valid.

More important, I've made an argument in this thread specifically against the use of price as an indicator of sound quality. I'm not sure whether you're trying to counter that argument by saying that some other guy's used price as well, hence it must be a good method. But instead of saying that no one seemed to object to that method in some other thread, I do think you need to address the argument where it's actually given, i.e. here.



I have no problem with not having price be the factor. At some point I guess this thread could actually turn into a compilation of headphones and maybe placed in some kind of first tier and second tier order. This because of the question as if there are really tiers?

This graph was just shown as an example with the fact that he did it with price. Of course price is not a statement of something being better but still most here view expensive headphones as being better.

Also remember that most orders of things receive a fair amount of judgement anyway. Folks have their own ideas and to have someone rate stuff always gets questioned. Basic thought says that only a certain % of readers will agree with any order placed on a series of headphones.

Still the other main idea of this thread is how and why do buyers fall for what could be viewed by many as 2nd level headphones.

Remember the guy in high school who started dating that really ugly girl. Who ever would of thought? But the two connected on some level and they fell in love in ways that outsiders could not relate to. This is the concept here, to try and understand the same thing with headphones and the folks who love them


I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but this is pretty much proven by the fact that people fall in love with Grados of any price.  Objectively, held up to any standard of fidelity that you could possibly conceive, they fail miserably.  Yet when I listen to them they don't sound half bad.  They're ever pretty damn good with some music. (until listening fatigue sets in anyway...)  Why is that?

I think it's the fundamental unnaturalness of headphones in the first place.  Essentially all music is recorded and mixed to played back on speakers.  I contend that listening to such music over headphones, with 100% channel separation and bypassing much of the individual's HRTF essentially destroys any concept of neutrality.  Nothing short of an advanced DSP can come close to reproducing the intended listening conditions over headphones.  Since so few people use such DSP, subjectivity reigns.



Your talk about Grados are right in line with the questions this thread asks. How is it that people train their ears to somehow understand a sound that many can not begin to love?

Grados are rock headphones and seem to be loved for that genre. They have qualities even though their popularity has started to subside in the last 6 years or so.

Who is to say if a test group was given a series of headphones that were bass reduced and the test group could only hear those headphones for their first 5 years of their listening, could they choose bassless cans their whole life? I think so.

Their brain gets taught how to hear and from then on they have a style of sound signature, even if wrong to most of us.
 
May 7, 2015 at 10:52 AM Post #382 of 483

julian67

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Remember the guy in high school who started dating that really ugly girl. Who ever would of thought?


Remember that friend of your mom's? The one who gave birth to that little boy who grew to be insufferably crass and conceited, brimming over with self regard, utterly impervious to insight and reason? The best part? Didn't even know the difference between of and have.
 
May 7, 2015 at 11:31 AM Post #383 of 483

Redcarmoose

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Remember that friend of your mom's? The one who gave birth to that little boy who grew to be insufferably crass and conceited, brimming over with self regard, utterly impervious to insight and reason? The best part? Didn't even know the difference between of and have.




Your right should be, would have thought.


English grammar is important.:mortar_board:
 
May 7, 2015 at 11:55 AM Post #384 of 483

vid

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I have no problem with not having price be the factor. At some point I guess this thread could actually turn into a compilation of headphones and maybe placed in some kind of first tier and second tier order. This because of the question as if there are really tiers?

This graph was just shown as an example with the fact that he did it with price. Of course price is not a statement of something being better but still most here view expensive headphones as being better.

Also remember that most orders of things receive a fair amount of judgement anyway. Folks have their own ideas and to have someone rate stuff always gets questioned. Basic thought says that only a certain % of readers will agree with any order placed on a series of headphones.

Still the other main idea of this thread is how and why do buyers fall for what could be viewed by many as 2nd level headphones.

Remember the guy in high school who started dating that really ugly girl. Who ever would of thought? But the two connected on some level and they fell in love in ways that outsiders could not relate to. This is the concept here, to try and understand the same thing with headphones and the folks who love them

 
This being the science forum, the goal isn't to poll people on their ideas and go with the majority vote, but rather to evaluate the arguments for and against a given idea. Each idea needs an argument to justify itself, and each argument needs to deal with the likely counterarguments.
 
So far, the only argument I've seen for price as an indication of sound quality has been that the price of transducers reflects their quality - or something like that. If that were the case, a tiering based on market price wouldn't inherently work, since market price is obviously not comprised solely of the cost of transducers.
 
May 7, 2015 at 7:38 PM Post #385 of 483

julian67

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This being the science forum, the goal isn't to poll people on their ideas and go with the majority vote, but rather to evaluate the arguments for and against a given idea. Each idea needs an argument to justify itself, and each argument needs to deal with the likely counterarguments.

So far, the only argument I've seen for price as an indication of sound quality has been that the price of transducers reflects their quality - or something like that. If that were the case, a tiering based on market price wouldn't inherently work, since market price is obviously not comprised solely of the cost of transducers.


But surely headphones only sound right if the listener is completely up themselves, especially if regular associates and family members have failed to point this out? Also the more more money a person has the more intelligent they must be, and of course this means they have better taste, better hearing, better everything! It's the genetics stoopid!
 
May 7, 2015 at 8:57 PM Post #386 of 483

julian67

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I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but this is pretty much proven by the fact that people fall in love with Grados of any price.


OK, for the benefit of the debate (and comedians everywhere), let's assume that's a proven fact, just because you say so.

Now please address some of the points that follow on:

"2: that they do so even after experiencing something they acknowledge to be better."

"......that the same people actually do discount "superior models" (superior according to who?) and also that this is as a result of said romantic entanglement."

This thread has about as much claim to being scientific as astrology or divining the future by tea leaves or the scorch marks left on your dorm wall by lighting farts (your own or someone else's, it doesn't matter, so you head-fi "scientists" please just carry on as normal).
 
May 7, 2015 at 9:25 PM Post #387 of 483

maverickronin

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Now please address some of the points that follow on:

"2: that they do so even after experiencing something they acknowledge to be better."

"......that the same people actually do discount "superior models" (superior according to who?) and also that this is as a result of said romantic entanglement."

 
Possibly because some people say it themselves?
 
May 8, 2015 at 7:00 AM Post #389 of 483

Gr8Desire

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I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but this is pretty much proven by the fact that people fall in love with Grados of any price.  Objectively, held up to any standard of fidelity that you could possibly conceive, they fail miserably.  Yet when I listen to them they don't sound half bad.  They're ever pretty damn good with some music. (until listening fatigue sets in anyway...)  Why is that?
 
I think it's the fundamental unnaturalness of headphones in the first place.  Essentially all music is recorded and mixed to played back on speakers.  I contend that listening to such music over headphones, with 100% channel separation and bypassing much of the individual's HRTF essentially destroys any concept of neutrality.  Nothing short of an advanced DSP can come close to reproducing the intended listening conditions over headphones.  Since so few people use such DSP, subjectivity reigns.

 
The answer is fairly simple:  Audio testing is archaic, inconsistent and incomplete.  We use 1960 methodologies and then ask "why doesn't this work?"

Take frequency response measurements for an example. Most are measured at a single SPL.  If you listen louder or softer, you will get a different response curve. Same goes with driver velocity.  Lower the SPL the listening level, and the driver response time will change.
 
Why do Grados sound better than they test? Blame the tests not the phones - and then recognize that Grados likely excel at untested SPLs where many people actually listen.

In the age of big data, audio testing is back in the stone age.
 
May 8, 2015 at 10:55 AM Post #390 of 483

vid

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I'd question whether the typical grado user operates their headphones at a mellow level. But I'd also note the existence of an entire genre of lo-fi music that people seem to enjoy.
 
This is beating a dead horse, of course.
 

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