High End Bluetooth Headphones
Mar 7, 2015 at 11:03 PM Post #676 of 894

n00b2

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  My opinion? I think that Sennheiser is lazy and conservative.
I am also not sure, but somehow I have the impression that they are few and old people there, because every single time, believe me, every single time that I call or write, the SAME guy answer me. And I mean, Sennheiser maybe does not sell as much as Beats and does not need 500 Customer Care representatives, but, ONE?
I mean, when I called, when I wrote to the support, and when I wrote a suggestion in the online form in the "feedback" section, the SAME guy answered.
Whatever.
What I wanted to say is that from how he spook to me of BT, I had the impression that Sennheiser just hate BT.
They do it just to please people and gain a bit of market more but they see it as something bad for the sound.
Which, I mean, everybody know that BT is not as good as wired, but there are people who need BT, and those people deserve good headphones too, so if you produce headphones, and you can make people happy by doing better BT headphones, why not?
But I think they are lazy and do not want to invest time in the BT research, and so they still have the SAME bt hardware and put it in just every new headphone.
Look, the prehistoric MM550-X had already Noise Gard. And it already sucked.
They KNOW that people are craving for good ANC, and they use the same ****ty Noise Gard in their new models.
They know that the range is not good, even their USB adapter sucks, but they do NOTHING to change that.
If I am wrong, I apologize with Sennheiser, but if I am right, they should apologize with us, because the cost of the Momentum (new model) wired is 319 and the BT version is 449, and you can NOT make people pay 130 Euro more just to put there the same old crappy bt technology which you use since the MM series.
 
But maybe I am wrong, because he somehow told me that since the MM they had be making research and improvements.
Or maybe they should have made more improvements, if people still complain about the same (poor range, poor anc).
I mean, for me the ANC of the BeoPlay H8 sucks, and people say it is better than the Momentum (apart for the hiss).
So...

Doesn't surprise me that the same guy answers every time. If you call up you will probably get a bunch of different guys answering. But through email it is one guy's responsibility to respond. Usually that guy would know what he is doing but from what you have said ...
 
Not sure if Sennheiser hate BT, they have released a fair few BT models much more than most other audiophile brands. They clearly love wireless as shown by their RS series (great headphones). They have definitely improved since the MM series. The sound was crap with NC on in those. Not so with the Momentum. The battery life over bluetooth has also improved a lot as well. The noise guard seems to have improved in the new version from the specs but could be that it makes no difference in real life. Could be that they just don't think BT will ever be as good as wired and that is their standard response whenever a complaint comes through regarding bluetooth (whatever the complaint). Bit of a copout if that is the case but they are trying.
 
Why do you dislike the BT adapters btw? From all user reviews I have seen they are well rated. And they tell you whether you are connected by aptx or SBC.
 
Mar 8, 2015 at 12:50 AM Post #677 of 894

Giogio

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  Doesn't surprise me that the same guy answers every time. If you call up you will probably get a bunch of different guys answering. But through email it is one guy's responsibility to respond. Usually that guy would know what he is doing but from what you have said ...
 
Not sure if Sennheiser hate BT, they have released a fair few BT models much more than most other audiophile brands. They clearly love wireless as shown by their RS series (great headphones). They have definitely improved since the MM series. The sound was crap with NC on in those. Not so with the Momentum. The battery life over bluetooth has also improved a lot as well. The noise guard seems to have improved in the new version from the specs but could be that it makes no difference in real life. Could be that they just don't think BT will ever be as good as wired and that is their standard response whenever a complaint comes through regarding bluetooth (whatever the complaint). Bit of a copout if that is the case but they are trying.
 
Why do you dislike the BT adapters btw? From all user reviews I have seen they are well rated. And they tell you whether you are connected by aptx or SBC.


As said, he is also the SAME guy who answered when I have called. Twice.
But I would not say that he does not know what he does. He was actually pretty competent. And friendly enough, at least at the Phone.
 
For the wireless Range they did not improve at all.
For the NC, for what I have read, they also did not.
But if you say they did, then they maybe did. I did not read any comparison of the MM series with the new models, but the way the ANC of the Momentum is compared to the (for me poor) one of the H8, made me feel that so much they did not evolve. But maybe you are right and they evolved at least in making the sound better when the NC is active.
 
Your supposition is what I was trying to say, they think that BT does not ans will never sound good enough. What I mean with hating is that they do not put apparently any deep effort in improving all what they can, maybe exactly because they think there is nothing to improve, but I believe in BT Audio, so I disagree with such an attitude.
And, yes, they love RS, that guy was very clear, told me immediately that if I want quality in wireless I had to go RS.
 
I did not say that their BTD500 is bad. I have said that its wireless range is mediocre. Although the Azio and the Avantree are not much better.
And it is BT 2.1. They could now make a BT 4 so to activate the Low Energy features in the new BT 4 Headphones.
And also with smaller dimensions and better range.
The audio quality, to be honest, if it was better than the Azio or Avantree, I did not notice it.
And all adapters indicate the codec used.
At least the three I had.
The Avantree does it like the Sennheiser, through the way the LED blinks.
The Azio does it via the CSR Software, with the Aptx Logo coming out if an Apty device is connected.
I personally still wait for something with Low Latency and Class 1, or at least with a better range than the ones I have tried till now.
Avantree is making one like this, which while being class 2 will have a better range due to an antenna.
But it will be a stationary one, no battery, attached to AC power. So, when I (like I always do) take my notebook in Bed, I will have problems.
So I am interested in the japanese ones which I have posted somewhere, and which are aptx and class 1, although not low latency aptx.
Anyway, I have no low latency headphone, so...
I also do not have a class 1 headphone, but I think that a class 1 transmitter will give a better range than a class 2, even if paired with a class 2 headphone. Of course not the full class 1 range of 100 meters, but surely more than 10.
At least I hope so.
 
Mar 8, 2015 at 3:52 AM Post #678 of 894

n00b2

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As said, he is also the SAME guy who answered when I have called. Twice.
But I would not say that he does not know what he does. He was actually pretty competent. And friendly enough, at least at the Phone.
 
For the wireless Range they did not improve at all.
For the NC, for what I have read, they also did not.
But if you say they did, then they maybe did. I did not read any comparison of the MM series with the new models, but the way the ANC of the Momentum is compared to the (for me poor) one of the H8, made me feel that so much they did not evolve. But maybe you are right and they evolved at least in making the sound better when the NC is active.
 
Your supposition is what I was trying to say, they think that BT does not ans will never sound good enough. What I mean with hating is that they do not put apparently any deep effort in improving all what they can, maybe exactly because they think there is nothing to improve, but I believe in BT Audio, so I disagree with such an attitude.
And, yes, they love RS, that guy was very clear, told me immediately that if I want quality in wireless I had to go RS.
 
I did not say that their BTD500 is bad. I have said that its wireless range is mediocre. Although the Azio and the Avantree are not much better.
And it is BT 2.1. They could now make a BT 4 so to activate the Low Energy features in the new BT 4 Headphones.
And also with smaller dimensions and better range.
The audio quality, to be honest, if it was better than the Azio or Avantree, I did not notice it.
And all adapters indicate the codec used.
At least the three I had.
The Avantree does it like the Sennheiser, through the way the LED blinks.
The Azio does it via the CSR Software, with the Aptx Logo coming out if an Apty device is connected.
I personally still wait for something with Low Latency and Class 1, or at least with a better range than the ones I have tried till now.
Avantree is making one like this, which while being class 2 will have a better range due to an antenna.
But it will be a stationary one, no battery, attached to AC power. So, when I (like I always do) take my notebook in Bed, I will have problems.
So I am interested in the japanese ones which I have posted somewhere, and which are aptx and class 1, although not low latency aptx.
Anyway, I have no low latency headphone, so...
I also do not have a class 1 headphone, but I think that a class 1 transmitter will give a better range than a class 2, even if paired with a class 2 headphone. Of course not the full class 1 range of 100 meters, but surely more than 10.
At least I hope so.

Yeh that is understandable. They put a lot of emphasis on their RS series and for good reason. They are at least having a go with bluetooth which is commendable considering most other high end companies will not even consider it.
 
The BTD500 is 3.0 not 2.1. They have a new version the BTD800 which is 4.0 and much smaller, though still with the LED light. Also seems to have ironed out some of the issues the BTD500 has from what I have read. It's not advertised that well though as it seems to mainly come with the new presence headsets but they can be purchased separately.
 
I have used a class 1 adapter with my old 2.1 class 2 bluetooth headphones in the past. Did not make any difference. Could be due to my house having numerous walls or interference from other wireless devices when I get to that room but they both started cutting out at the same location. YMMV though and I suppose it is worth a shot especially if it is within line of sight.
 
I'm not sure if there are any headphones with aptx LL. Remember reading on here I think that there was one model but can't remember which one. The Avantree Priva and Saturn Pro adapters both have aptx LL though you would need two of them and have your headphones connected to one rather than use their own internal bluetooth chips. Aptx LL would only really be important for online gaming or watching movies and you don't want to / can't adjust the lip sync (mate of mine glued a Saturn Pro to his ear cup. It's doing the job).
 
Mar 8, 2015 at 7:46 AM Post #679 of 894

Yappadappadu

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Originally Posted by Giogio /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Tell me, when do you have range problems? I suppose that not outdoors with the source (phone) in your pockets?
Probably at home, while walking around far from the source?
In that case, what is the source? A USB dongle? Or what?
 

No, I could care less about indoors. I use these cans on the go 100% outside with my iPhone in the left front pocket and that's where the BT connection problems come into play.
Check out the Momentum 2.0 thread.
Moving around the iPhone is my pocket is often enough and the stuttering starts. Or passing a building on the street. The way these headphones handle interferences is really bad.
It's really sad considering that my 5 years old Sennheiser MM450 On-Ears with BT 2.1 have no BT connection problems at all. So instead of improving the BT connection outside to handle interferences better they changed it for the worse. Great job.
 
There are only 3 headphones that I am considering. The Sennheiser Momentum Wireless due to the great design and folding function, the Sony MDR-1ABT due to design and sound and my Plantronics Backbeatpro that don't look as nice as the other two but at least provide good BT connection and nice bass sound.
 
btw. Sennheiser issued a statement, which you can read here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/749606/sennheiser-momentum-2-0-and-wireless/750#post_11380633
 
The following sentence is especially funny: "Do bear in mind that this is not unique to the Momentum Wireless."
 
They're basically saying that the dropouts/stuttering are normal. The funny thing is that other BT headphones are doing a lot better, even their own older models, so no, it's not normal and they should do something about it.
 
Mar 8, 2015 at 12:15 PM Post #680 of 894

Giogio

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  No, I could care less about indoors. I use these cans on the go 100% outside with my iPhone in the left front pocket and that's where the BT connection problems come into play.
Check out the Momentum 2.0 thread.
Moving around the iPhone is my pocket is often enough and the stuttering starts. Or passing a building on the street. The way these headphones handle interferences is really bad.
It's really sad considering that my 5 years old Sennheiser MM450 On-Ears with BT 2.1 have no BT connection problems at all. So instead of improving the BT connection outside to handle interferences better they changed it for the worse. Great job.
 
There are only 3 headphones that I am considering. The Sennheiser Momentum Wireless due to the great design and folding function, the Sony MDR-1ABT due to design and sound and my Plantronics Backbeatpro that don't look as nice as the other two but at least provide good BT connection and nice bass sound.
 
btw. Sennheiser issued a statement, which you can read here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/749606/sennheiser-momentum-2-0-and-wireless/750#post_11380633
 
The following sentence is especially funny: "Do bear in mind that this is not unique to the Momentum Wireless."
 
They're basically saying that the dropouts/stuttering are normal. The funny thing is that other BT headphones are doing a lot better, even their own older models, so no, it's not normal and they should do something about it.


Well, they are in part right, because it is not unique to the Momentum. But you are right that not all headphones do that. Which means that, yes, they could and should fix it.
This is what I mean when I say that they are lazy with BT. You can see they do not do it with passion.
How can you do something good if you do not love what you are doing, if you do not like it, if you do not believe in it?
Which sounds a bit Kung Fu Panda but it is true.
 
Now.
Why do not you consider:
DefTech Symphony 1
Stance S1+ (you may have already told me but I forgot. Was it for the closed mic?)
Supertooth Freedom (nice fresh clean sound, cheap, a bit childish looking)
ATH-WS99BT (probably the most capable BT Headphone out there, for the quality and quantity of frequency rendering, being able to give an excellent detail, and a clean precise sound in all frequencies, and being able to be pushed and boosted and tweaked as much as one wants, with the bass being able to reach a level of power that real basshead can be amazed of, and the highs never becoming harsh or sibilant, and the mids being warm. So, quite perfect, apart for the soundstage which is good but not extremely good. Not as the DefTech is SUPPOSED to be).
Akg K845BT (a guy in the thread UE9000 vs AKGK845BT says they have enough bass for him, even coming from the UE. So. I disagree but this means that tastes are really tastes and that other people could find them good also on the bass).
Meelectronics Air-Fi matrix2 (if you will never boost the sub bass, and only gently boost the mid and upper bass, they offer a very nice sound, not as detailed as Akg of course, but nice and fresh and balanced. Ad with an excellent range).
 
These are the only Around the Ear I can think about which could be satisfying, each one with its personality.
 
Btw, do you know if these dropouts f the Senny also happen with Android?
 
Mar 10, 2015 at 8:11 AM Post #682 of 894

Giogio

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I really don't understand why you keep insisting that this is the case when all publicly available information suggests just the opposite:
 
1) Sony discontinued MDR-1R when MDR-1A were released (i.e. the latter replaced the former).  Hint: the same will happen with MDR-1RBTMK2 in the first half of this year.

So, as I am stubborn, and obsessive, and I like to investigate on things, I have called Sony.
Because, you see, the fact is that what you call "publicly available information" for me is toilette paper. I only believe in what comes DIRECTLY from the producer and is readable on the website of the producer.
The speed at which false information travels and propagates and grows from people to people is faster than light.
"I have read that somebody said" becomes soon a universal truth after being repeated 10000 times, or, as you said, on 26 pages in a thread.
But does NOT mean that it really is true.
 
Anyway. No idea what Sony Japan would say, but I will not ask them because Japanese people are difficult to communicate with.
I have asked German Sony. It was embarrasing to see that they, working for Sony, have no much more info than us.
And for example they had the lesser idea about 1ABT.
They only could tell me that the 1ABT is successor of the 1A. Yes, you have read well. And if it does not make sense to you, it is because it does not make sense at all.
How can a bt version be successor of the wired version? Just because it is newer?
Like in Amazon the 10RBT is calles successor of the 1RBT?
Anyway. I have asked if they could tell me about A and R.
They told me that for what they could read, the A is supposed to be successor of the R.
Now.
I suppose that at this point it is scheiße egal.
But I wanted to say that they, even if in the middle of other deliring information, confirmed what you said, at least for A and R.
 
I am really curious to read the first comparisons between ABT and RBTMK2, or ABT with any other top BT Headphone...
Just few weeks...
 
Mar 10, 2015 at 8:19 AM Post #683 of 894

Giogio

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I'm pretty new to hifi equipment, but I just received the S1+ two days ago. Here are some notes of my initial impressions for what they're worth:
 
Solid mids; highs are slightly muted
Decent soundstage when bass isn’t rumbling
Bass is often muffled/undefined/boomy/lazy; overwhelms other elements
Clamping force is too high
Ear pads are slightly small for large ears
Cheap plastic feel of housing; button click haptics not ideal; slide switches each have different feel
A bit pricey for the build quality feel
Disconnected from phone repeatedly when battery icon on the phone still showed half charge
 
 
I had been alternating between the Air-Fi Matrix2 and the Samsung Level Over. The Stances definitely have better mids than either of those, with the mids on the Samsungs being particularly lacking. I'd like more highs on the Stance phones though, and they're definitely less comfortable than the Level Overs. 

Same impressions here. Just received the Stance. Matrix2 yesterday.
The quality of the Stance is clearly superior, but both share the imprecise and fragile bass. The Stance manage it better anyway.
I vote for the Stance. No doubt.
Samsung, on my memory did not lack mids. Or maybe lacked so much bass and highs that I felt like they did not lack mid :)
What can be is that the mids where far in the background, even if not lacking as frequency, due to the good, wide, deep soundstage. As it happens on the Plantronics Backbeat Pro. They do not lack mid, but the vocals do not sound so present because the soundstage place them deeper, far.
I think the Stance are very good out of the box.
But as first impression, they do not seem to respond well to EQ. Which for my ideology (and personal needs) is not a good thing.
let's test more...
 
What I wanted to ask is this: could you guys check your BT headphones, and tell me if when you make a call (you do not need the person to answer, you can just call any hotline where you are left to wait, and test) you can hear your voice amplified by the mic in the speakers, and you can hear the difference when you mute the mic on the phone?
Because somebody complained that the Stance are "closed mic" (you do not hear your voice in the speakers) as if it was a drama, something terrible and unique and never seen before.
i have here 7 BT Headphones. They are all like that.
 
Let's male some statistics :)
 
Mar 10, 2015 at 9:41 PM Post #684 of 894

turbobb

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@Giogio - my experience is the same as yours, just about all the BT cans featuring mic's I've ever tried (includes the Stance S1 & S1+) have been mediocore at best when used for calls and no, I can't ever recall being able to hear my own voice in the headphone.
 
Mar 10, 2015 at 10:39 PM Post #685 of 894

Giogio

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Well, actually I was kind of thinking that this was normal.
I mean.
It is painful to admit, from somebody who compared 30 headphones, but I have never noticed that any headphone was able to let you hear your own voice into the speaker during calls.
It would be nice to have a list of those which can,
In my thread somebody mentioned the Momentum and the Backbeat Pro.
I should be able to have them both soon.
Then, for other ones, no idea.
But to be honest, I have never felt it as a problem. Maybe because I do not use ANC. So the isolation is not complete and I can still perfectly hear my own voice.
Which by the way, the isolation will never be so complete, not even with ANC, to stop you from hearing your own voice resonating inside your skull whan you speak, please :)
And, I kind of know what I am saying, when I am talking. I do not need to hear my voice, to know what I am saying. It is not like having to see where you walk.
But as everybody is different and some people like to hear their voice in the speakers, a list of which headphones offer that would be cool.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 7:15 AM Post #686 of 894

Techfixation

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Doesn't surprise me that the same guy answers every time. If you call up you will probably get a bunch of different guys answering. But through email it is one guy's responsibility to respond. Usually that guy would know what he is doing but from what you have said ...

Not sure if Sennheiser hate BT, they have released a fair few BT models much more than most other audiophile brands. They clearly love wireless as shown by their RS series (great headphones). They have definitely improved since the MM series. The sound was crap with NC on in those. Not so with the Momentum. The battery life over bluetooth has also improved a lot as well. The noise guard seems to have improved in the new version from the specs but could be that it makes no difference in real life. Could be that they just don't think BT will ever be as good as wired and that is their standard response whenever a complaint comes through regarding bluetooth (whatever the complaint). Bit of a copout if that is the case but they are trying.

Why do you dislike the BT adapters btw? From all user reviews I have seen they are well rated. And they tell you whether you are connected by aptx or SBC.


I've actually tried both the Sennheiser 160's and 170's and have to say I was rather disappointed especially as they both get such great reviews! I found they were seriously lacking in bass and body and actually found them quite tinny an un-exciting even after decent burn in, the soundstage was good but that's about all I can say about them!

The 170's were certainly a lot better than the 160's with much more fullness and a bit more warmth but they still lacked any real punch even with bass boost on and they felt like a much much cheaper pair of phones compared to my very moderately priced wired in ear Klipsch S4's which are an unbelievable set of phones by the way!

I also tried the SoundMAGIC WP10's which cost quite a bit more at £240 from Amazon compared to £90 for the 160's and £150 for the 170's. The SoundMAGIC's also utilize KLEER technology like the Sennheisers and like the Sennheisers the signal is virtually hiss free, although I did find the SoundMAGICS did seriously screw with my WiFi and did occasionally drop signal! They were however a decent step up in quality and had a much better sound than the Sennheisers and were also much better built and much better to look at. Unfortunately though they were still nowhere near as good as my S4's, with a lacking bass and still a bit of tinnyness!
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 7:19 AM Post #687 of 894

Techfixation

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I'm looking for a decent pair of phones for watching movies late at night without having a cable trailing across the living room floor! They need to have great bass and a warm exciting sound as I think this will best suit the kind of movies I'll be watching!

This is my shortlist so far;

Philips Fidelio M2BT

Plantronics Backbeat PRO

Logitech UE9000

Harman Kardon BT

Sony MDR-XB950BT (modded)

The most important thing is that they have very little to no background hiss at all!... Unlike listening to music, movies have lots of silent parts such as spoken parts and the audible hiss can be very distracting!

I'd be very interested to know whether anyone has any experience with the headphones above and can tell me how much hiss they put out, I'm especially interested in the Sony's?

Also if you have any other recommendations of other headphones that are great with movies?

Thanks
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 7:09 PM Post #688 of 894

ppeng

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Has anyone heard both the symphony 1 and the Momentum wireless? I'm looking for a pair of bluetooth headphones and not sure which to get. I can't find either headphones at stores near me. Could someone who has heard both give me a comparison between the two? I'm open for any other bluetooth headphones you would recommend in the $200-$500 range. I have also considered the AKG K845 and Sony Mdr-1rbt but both look cheap and have plastic build.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 7:20 PM Post #689 of 894

david8613

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I would stay away from the Sony MDR-XB950BT too much bass, and highs are not nice enough for delicate parts of a movie and they have a very closed soundstage that's why I don't have them anymore. I have extensive experience with the logitech ue 9000 and I have used them to watch movies, especially the game of thrones series, bass was excellent with alot of authority and strength, mids punchy very good, with nicely rolled off highs, soundstage is also great for movies very open. these cans are a classic, these are my back ups. I could also highly recommend the plantronics back beat pros these are my current main headphones, these do not have the strength and depth of the ue 9000 in the bass department, although it's not too far off, the backbeats are more revealing, you hear more texture layers In the bass and other frequencies. They also go higher in the highs, just don't play them at max level because they can get kind of sharp with certain sources, the backbeats have a very nice wide soundstage. I don't have experience with the others on your list so I can't comment but I'm sure others will crime in.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 7:04 PM Post #690 of 894

Techfixation

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I would stay away from the Sony MDR-XB950BT too much bass, and highs are not nice enough for delicate parts of a movie and they have a very closed soundstage that's why I don't have them anymore. I have extensive experience with the logitech ue 9000 and I have used them to watch movies, especially the game of thrones series, bass was excellent with alot of authority and strength, mids punchy very good, with nicely rolled off highs, soundstage is also great for movies very open. these cans are a classic, these are my back ups. I could also highly recommend the plantronics back beat pros these are my current main headphones, these do not have the strength and depth of the ue 9000 in the bass department, although it's not too far off, the backbeats are more revealing, you hear more texture layers In the bass and other frequencies. They also go higher in the highs, just don't play them at max level because they can get kind of sharp with certain sources, the backbeats have a very nice wide soundstage. I don't have experience with the others on your list so I can't comment but I'm sure others will crime in.


Thanks for the advice!

You can actually do some really easy mods to the sony's which vastly improves their sound!

It's definitely worth checking out this thread

I was seriously thinking about the UE 9000's but heard they were a bit heavy?

Apparently the Backbeats are a touch bright for movies?...I prefer phones with a bit more warmth!

What I'm really interested in is how much hiss you've experienced with them all?
 

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