[sahmen]

Congratulations!

FYI. Only after you have changed to something “better” you will know if something has act like a bottle-neck in your audio chain.

Touché, but speaking of "something better," does any specific component readily come to mind...? Reading this forum alone from one end to the other, one seems to run across a dizzyingly long list of possibilities, most on the more pricy side of the fence, almost none of which I could get a chance to audition before the jump... It looks to me like a sort of murky rabbit hole in which any consensus about whatever passes for "better" or "the best" doesn't ever last very long, that is if there is even a real consensus one could speak of to start with... So if you have any practical suggestions, I am all ears (or eyes )

PS. Unless of course, what you imply is that there are always going to be "bottlenecks" no matter what one owns, which is another conclusion one could draw from your point...(i.e. if one can always get something better than one has, which is the way things always seem to be in this hobby, then one always has some bottlenecks to deal with...Obviously, this is not what I meant to suggest when I mentioned not having any "bottlenecks," I know there are better amps out there)

 

[Articnoise]

Touché, but speaking of "something better," does any specific component readily come to mind...? Reading this forum alone from one end to the other, one seems to run across a dizzyingly long list of possibilities, most on the more pricy side of the fence, almost none of which I could get a chance to audition before the jump... It looks to me like a sort of murky rabbit hole in which any consensus about whatever passes for "better" or "the best" doesn't ever last very long, that is if there is even a real consensus one could speak of to start with... So if you have any practical suggestions, I am all ears (or eyes )

PS. Unless of course, what you imply is that there are always going to be "bottlenecks" no matter what one owns, which is another conclusion one could draw from your point...(i.e. if one can always get something better than one has, which is the way things always seem to be in this hobby, then one always has some bottlenecks to deal with...Obviously, this is not what meant to suggest when I mentioned not having any "bottlenecks," I know there are better amps out there

Bottleneck is not about "better" per se, it’s all about context. Meaning that one audio gear in one system can be a bottleneck, but in another system the same gear is not a bottleneck. It can even be the best part of that system . A bottleneck is a part of a chain which seriously decrease the capacity/performance/SQ of the whole chain.

 

[sahmen]

Bottleneck is not about "better" per se, it’s all about context. Meaning that one audio gear in one system can be a bottleneck, but in another system the same gear is not a bottleneck. It can even be the best part of that system . A bottleneck is a part of a chain which seriously decrease the capacity/performance/SQ of the whole chain.

Gotcha... Okay in that case, since the Susvara is sounding very effortless, very well resolved, detailed, spacious, airy, refined, full-throated and well-extended at both ends in this chain, as compared with anything I have ever heard before (including the HeKSE which was here before, and the LCD-4, which is still here), there must not be any bottlenecks that could be seriously decreasing or impeding its capacity to perform or its SQ, I assume? That's the way it seems now, at least as far as these ears can tell. Or if there are any, I cannot see or hear them, and that should be great for the time being... until it is not.

 

[donato]

Don't know what you need the pre for, but for what it's worth the Sonnet Morpheus has a preamp stage which calibrates well with my amp for very refined volume control. Just thought I should mention that. For example, there are some who find the Liquid Platinum's volume control problematic. It is not quite linear and has no high/low gain control. All too often times it seems jump from low to loud levels too fast for many users. Paired with the Sonnet Morpheus, I just set the LP's volume dial on the 1:30 position, and then control the volume with the Sonnet Morpheus, problem solved! And the Morpheus drives all my cans that way, from LCDi4 to the Susvara, so that pre-amp stage is no fluke. That is just FYI.

Yes, I mean the pre for the Holo Spring May. The built in volume control for the Sonnet Morpheus and the Rockna Wavelight are definitely advantageous in that regard.

 

[donato]

Bottleneck is not about "better" per se, it’s all about context. Meaning that one audio gear in one system can be a bottleneck, but in another system the same gear is not a bottleneck. It can even be the best part of that system . A bottleneck is a part of a chain which seriously decrease the capacity/performance/SQ of the whole chain.

<digression for a bit of a thought experiment>
All this talk about bottlenecking makes me think back to the manufacturing concept of the Theory of Constraints (I once worked at an audio related company that forced us to read this). In that model, you always have one link in your chain that is causing a contraint/bottleneck which reduces the performance of the entire line to the performance of that bottleneck. So, in the theory of constraints, you would essentially build excess capacity in the upstream links so that you could always allow the constrained resource to run at maximum capacity (which again, is ultimately limiting your entire throughput). You could always improve/upgrade a bottlneck item and then the bottleneck would shift somewhere else. Note that improving anything downstream of the bottleneck would not improve throughput.

So, if we applied this concept to a sound reproduction chain (I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but bear with me since it's just a thought experiment) and you wanted to get the most performance out of the Susvara then the Susvara should be the bottleneck (i.e. no bottleneck produced by any upstream component). So you could "overspec" all of the upstream items (all the way back to the source material) to make sure the Susvara performed at its best. This does not necessarily mean that this is the most efficient use of resources (in our case money spent on gear, etc.) because you might need to overspend on upstream items to optimize the bottleneck (i.e. the Susvara). This is also probably why the Theory of Constraints fell out of favor once JIT came around. It's also a bit more difficult to know where your bottleneck is with audio reproduction than when manufacturing physical items.
</digression>

 

[Articnoise]

<digression for a bit of a thought experiment>
All this talk about bottlenecking makes me think back to the manufacturing concept of the Theory of Constraints (I once worked at an audio related company that forced us to read this). In that model, you always have one link in your chain that is causing a contraint/bottleneck which reduces the performance of the entire line to the performance of that bottleneck. So, in the theory of constraints, you would essentially build excess capacity in the upstream links so that you could always allow the constrained resource to run at maximum capacity (which again, is ultimately limiting your entire throughput). You could always improve/upgrade a bottlneck item and then the bottleneck would shift somewhere else. Note that improving anything downstream of the bottleneck would not improve throughput.

So, if we applied this concept to a sound reproduction chain (I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but bear with me since it's just a thought experiment) and you wanted to get the most performance out of the Susvara then the Susvara should be the bottleneck (i.e. no bottleneck produced by any upstream component). So you could "overspec" all of the upstream items (all the way back to the source material) to make sure the Susvara performed at its best. This does not necessarily mean that this is the most efficient use of resources (in our case money spent on gear, etc.) because you might need to overspend on upstream items to optimize the bottleneck (i.e. the Susvara). This is also probably why the Theory of Constraints fell out of favor once JIT came around. It's also a bit more difficult to know where your bottleneck is with audio reproduction than when manufacturing physical items.
</digression>

No that is not really the meaning of a bottleneck. To be a bottleneck one part has to set the limits for the whole chain/system.

Bottleneck is a concept there one part of a chain is limiting the performance of the whole chain / system negatively. All attempts to improve other parts of the chain are therefore meaningless, because it’s the bottleneck that sets the limit.

It can also be described as the weakest link, if we do not fix *it*, the whole system will sound bad no matter if we improve other parts of the chain/system.

 

[sahmen]

No that is not the meaning of a bottleneck. To be a bottleneck one part has to set the limits for the whole chain/system.

Bottleneck is a concept there one part of a chain is limiting the performance of the whole chain / system negatively. All attempts to improve other parts of the chain are therefore meaningless, because it’s the bottleneck that sets the limits. It can be described as the weakest link, if we do not fix *it*, the whole system will sound bad no matter if we improve other parts of the chain/system. Because a system (any kind of system) is never better than their weakest link. We shall therefore always work to eliminate the weakest link, aka bottleneck.

I do not think your explanation contradicts anything @donato has said. What you're saying is that the chain is as strong as its weakest link, which is understandable, as long as you're conceiving of the chain as one unified set made up "great" components which allow room for only one possible "weakest" link or "bottleneck." However, one could also see the chain as a combination of multiple components, all coming with different degrees of imperfection, which is not hard to imagine, given that no component is really ever completely perfect in practice, no matter how well-performing or expensive it might be. Seen in this light, the position of the weakest link can only shift from one component to another, as each last perceived "weakest link" is replaced by a better performer. The "weakest link" in a chain made up of such recognizably imperfect components, can only rotate its position indefinitely, and never entirely disappear, until one can find or set up a chain with a set of perfect parts, which does not really exist in practice, at least as far as I can tell personally...

By the way, in case you're wondering, I still think the Susvara rocks, and I am enjoying every minute of it, regardless of whatever imperfections it might have, and that is what ever counts, in my book (Okay, I only said that about the Susvara to make this post seem relevant, and topical as we seem to be digressing, and going off-topic ).

So back to the Susvara?

 

[beemerphile]

Okay, FYI : So I'm an official member of the"a 'fellowship of the Susvarians" since this morning. My unit (the Susvara) landed today, and so far I am listening to it on this system :

Sonore Optical module (optone audio LPS 1.5) ==>> Uptone Etherregen (Paul Hynes SR4T LPS) ==>> Metrum Ac Ambre (I2S) ==>> Sonnet D.Morpheus ==>> Flux Lab FA-10 ==>> Susvara

Welcome to the club. Your chain is very close to mine (Ambre > Morpheus > Class A amp) and I am sure that the sound is exceptional. But for others who may be putting together a similar chain from scratch, from a system budgeting perspective I am curious about the sonic benefit of the optical module and etherRegen and a couple of expensive LPS's. Everything up to the Metrum is asynchronous data in packet form and the Ambre comes with optical isolation at its ethernet input. The pi is further galvanically isolated from the signal processing and timing sections. The two clocks in the Ambre are very good. I2S is the optimum connection to the Morpheus. If you are streaming from the internet, the packets have already made their way through a high number of copper and optical switches. I have some difficulty understanding how the last one can become sonically important. I did a test at my home by replacing the wired ethernet with an optical link straight from my HP managed switch (which has optical ports) to a media converter at the Ambre. It is the same switch that my Synology NAS is connected to via a 4-ethernet trunk. So for FLAC files on the NAS this is about as direct and isolated as one could get. Maybe it is my tin ears, but I could hear no difference. We agree on the Metrum, Morpheus, and Susvara (which is the heart of the matter) but I would suggest that someone building this chain from scratch spend the remainder of the system budget on the highest quality and most system-synergistic class A power amplifier that they can get. I am just another anonymous opinion on the internet, but my ears can't hear ethernet and the stock Hifiman cables on the Susvara, though they have a cheap rubbery feel, are good bi-metal silver/copper cables and sound fine.

 

[Roasty]

@beemerphile

I use the ER. Have tried removing it from the chain, but the music then sounds like it is missing something. I can't explain it, but it just sounds better with the ER.

I read the thread on the ER on audiosciencereview before purchasing it, so I bought it with skepticism.

I'd say, give it a shot and if you don't hear any difference with it, send it back.

 

[vonBaron]

What is ER?

 

[Roasty]

What is ER?

EtherRegen

 

[vonBaron]

I got very simillar device in my setup, it provides nice SQ bump.

 

[beemerphile]

I got very simillar device in my setup, it provides nice SQ bump.

Guess I'm going to be an outlier here. I'm not in the "try things and send them back" school and I believe that circuit and system simplicity are very worthwhile goals. My current system is high quality, but it is the simplest it has ever been from the non-oversampling DAC to the Class A amp. It has also never sounded better. I know that true audiophiles are not supposed to say this, but I am satisfied. I have no more problems to solve, and if I am missing something, I just don't care. It's taken me a long time, a lot of money, and I've been down a lot of rabbit holes to get here, so I think I'd just like to bask in it for, oh, the rest of my life.

 

[Dipesh]

How is Chord Dave plus Mscaler?

 

[Jon773]

Guess I'm going to be an outlier here. I'm not in the "try things and send them back" school and I believe that circuit and system simplicity are very worthwhile goals. My current system is high quality, but it is the simplest it has ever been from the non-oversampling DAC to the Class A amp. It has also never sounded better. I know that true audiophiles are not supposed to say this, but I am satisfied. I have no more problems to solve, and if I am missing something, I just don't care. It's taken me a long time, a lot of money, and I've been down a lot of rabbit holes to get here, so I think I'd just like to bask in it for, oh, the rest of my life.

So what is your setup?