HiFiMan Susvara
Jul 4, 2019 at 3:16 PM Post #2,701 of 11,810

mungster

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You are right jIbrach, ineztia doesn't know anything! All the manufacturer say the formula s works great with abyss and susvara and he say it is a tier 3 amp. Lol.
 
Jul 4, 2019 at 5:09 PM Post #2,702 of 11,810

tunes

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The Grado RA1 was specifically made for the RS1, and you could literally cobble together a parts kit from eBay and have a better headphone amp on your hands. Your point being?

I know Michael personally from his time at Lotoo. And I have told him in person that I think that the Formula S could use better components, and that it sounds relatively unrefined for an amp at its price point and is reliant on an overpriced external power supply. Just because you own something and you think is good doesn't mean that it's an endgame solution. It's a pretty good amp, but not even the best in its class. I'll take a Mass Kobo 394 for the 1266 TC any day of the week over the Formula S + powerman - it's not about raw power, but how refined and robustly that power can be delivered. At $3,500 for the entire stack, I can see the Formula S as a viable option for the Susvara. At $5,500 the E470 wipes the floor with it on most cans.

What high-level speaker amp have you personally tried with the Susvara or Abyss TC? Because even if you've only listened to a couple offerings in the $6,000 range, you won't be saying what you're saying.

Is your experience “At $5,500 the E470 wipes the floor with it on most cans“ with listening from the speaker taps or from the front panel HP jack? Since I have a CHORD DAVE a preamp is not needed. What other speaker amp is as good at this level without a preamp?
 
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Jul 4, 2019 at 6:52 PM Post #2,703 of 11,810

gordec

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Some say you don't need the power of a full speaker amp, some say headphone amps are underpowered. Maybe the best solution is in the middle. I'm exploring getting a NAD M10 or NAIM Uniti Atom and run the Susvara straight out the taps. A very clean one box solution that should have plenty power.
 
Jul 4, 2019 at 11:15 PM Post #2,704 of 11,810

ineztia

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At $5,500 the E470 wipes the floor with it on most cans.

What high-level speaker amp have you personally tried with the Susvara or Abyss TC? Because even if you've only listened to a couple offerings in the $6,000 range, you won't be saying what you're saying.

I'm looking for a speaker amp for a while, both 600iV2 and E470 are around $5K, And you think E470 is a better choice right ? I have no idea how Accuphase sounds like. :beyersmile:

You are right jIbrach, ineztia doesn't know anything! All the manufacturer say the formula s works great with abyss and susvara and he say it is a tier 3 amp. Lol.

Honestly, I haven't listened to any of those amps, all the impressions are unconfirmed.
IMO.
Tier 1 -> Perfect
Tier 2 -> Very good performance, some slight problems maybe
Tier 3 -> Average performance
Tier 4 -> OK for listening but many weaknesses as well
Tier 5 -> Just loud enough
....
 
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Jul 4, 2019 at 11:16 PM Post #2,705 of 11,810

Mystel

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You are right jIbrach, ineztia doesn't know anything! All the manufacturer say the formula s works great with abyss and susvara and he say it is a tier 3 amp. Lol.
And you have heard all the amp pairings he listed there ? Prove it. It must be nice to have accurate speculative powers to predict how something sounds like without even trying.

However I do think the Formula S/Powerman is actually pretty nice with the Susvara. Ive only tried them briefly in tokyo with an unfamiliar source and environment. But i will reserve true judgement until i accurately a/b it.

Heres my take, Now this is just ONE MANS OPINION. And as with EVERY OPINION ON THE INTERNET , learn to take it with a pinch of salt.

Are speaker amps better than headphone amps when it comes to driving these? I have a neutral take on these for now. I still think that a good amp is a good amp , no matter what its built for. Then again i have not tried many speaker amps.
Im leaning more towards the 700i ( 175w into 8ohms ) than the (a lot) less powerful EC Studio (0.8w into 32ohm) due to its added visceral punch . But i have a friend who prefers the Studio as it portrays more depth. Again, preferences play a huge role here, and i dont believe there is a fixed 'best amp' for everyone
Also, its not right to generalize any or some speaker amps as speaker amps as a whole. Remember, its still an amp with its own tonal characteristic. If its tuning doesn't play well with the headphone , then it just wont work no matter the power output.

At the end of the day, its all preferences, and as much as possible, you really have to try it for yourself to know if its right for you .
Ive tried and owned a couple of totl headphone amps and some speaker amps and sometimes come out with an impression that surprises me.
Some of us are lucky enough to be able to gain easy access to amp and headphone demos, but some do not. So, until you have the opportunity to try it in a good environment, then report your findings here and contribute to the discussion.
I dont believe it is right to claim that an amp is the 'absolute best' or 'endgame' without having tried everything. And as i said, that will likely be your endgame, and not everyone's, as we all hear differently. ( and if i may, some people's standards/understanding of 'endgame' might be different) .
For me, If i feel that there are better options than some amps suggested here, i will give my views, and as stated, take it with a pinch of salt.

And why do people feel the need to justify their circumstances of owning whatever amps?
Let me do the same.
ive been using the Susvara for a year now with speaker amps and its been doing fine.
Im transitioning into speakers soon, and its nice to have amps that serve in this transitional phase.
Will it ever blow? i dont know. But i know that I for one am more than willing to pay for a repair if it does.All i want is the best sound.
 
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Jul 4, 2019 at 11:21 PM Post #2,706 of 11,810

jlbrach

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I do not suggest anything is the absolute best, i only entered this conversation because people were suggesting that unless you use a speaker amp you cannot properly use the susvara and i do not believe that to be true...happy 4th to all
 
Jul 5, 2019 at 3:16 PM Post #2,708 of 11,810

Zhanming057

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Is your experience “At $5,500 the E470 wipes the floor with it on most cans“ with listening from the speaker taps or from the front panel HP jack? Since I have a CHORD DAVE a preamp is not needed. What other speaker amp is as good at this level without a preamp?

Speaker taps. The E470's front jack is a separate circuitry and pretty much as terrible as you'd expect a throwaway headphone amp module to be.

I'd recommend looking into Bryston, Linn, Simaudio, Pass and Spectral for solid state. A good active preamp is part of a brand's tuning profile, and I would still recommend using one if you find a particular brand to your liking. I personally like the idea that there is a coherent plan behind the entire presentation of a system and don't mind giving up a bit of SNR to achieve that, but people may disagree.

@ineztia They are different - Simaudio is a bit too polite for me, but both are great amps. I like Accuphase's presentation. Depends on what you want, Accuphase is a bit less clinical and depending on where you're located, a Pass Integrated might be easier to track down.

Don't buy Accuphase with the wrong voltage (not even 100v vs. 110v) unless you know for sure that you can find someone to perform the mod and is okay with the resale value impact. Ditto for all big Japanese amps.
 
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Jul 5, 2019 at 3:47 PM Post #2,709 of 11,810

BassicScience

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Is your experience “At $5,500 the E470 wipes the floor with it on most cans“ with listening from the speaker taps or from the front panel HP jack? Since I have a CHORD DAVE a preamp is not needed. What other speaker amp is as good at this level without a preamp?
FWIW, I've never preferred the sound of a DAC driving a power amp as much as inserting a good preamp in the chain. This may be because I prefer analog volume controls to digital, but more likely because I have a strong preference for tube preamps over solid state. One man's opinion...
 
Jul 5, 2019 at 7:54 PM Post #2,710 of 11,810

Oregonian

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Been a while since I asked this.................anyone try these with a vintage speaker amp? For the price/value this would be another option than spending thousands on the more spendy speaker amps mentioned above. Even with a fully recapped/renovated older amp you're in them for less than $1K in almost all cases. My system cost me less than $800 in total including a refreshed preamp and recapped amp.

I'm just curious - not trying to start another argument about "not needing speaker amps when HP amps can do the job". I'm genuinely curious since I just got a HE-6SE and am driving it out of the speaker taps of this..................and having gone this route with the original HE-6 was incredibly impressed with the performance.

Cerwin Vega DX-5 June 2019.jpg
 
Jul 5, 2019 at 9:56 PM Post #2,711 of 11,810

ineztia

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They are different - Simaudio is a bit too polite for me, but both are great amps. I like Accuphase's presentation. Depends on what you want, Accuphase is a bit less clinical and depending on where you're located, a Pass Integrated might be easier to track down.

Don't buy Accuphase with the wrong voltage (not even 100v vs. 110v) unless you know for sure that you can find someone to perform the mod and is okay with the resale value impact. Ditto for all big Japanese amps.

How about spatial resolution for E470 (compared to 700i) ?
Also, does it have volume protection mode that can limit its power output ?
 
Jul 6, 2019 at 8:07 AM Post #2,712 of 11,810

cladane

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FWIW, I've never preferred the sound of a DAC driving a power amp as much as inserting a good preamp in the chain. This may be because I prefer analog volume controls to digital, but more likely because I have a strong preference for tube preamps over solid state. One man's opinion...
What you ask to a preamp is gain/volume control and impedance adaptation.
Looking at modern DACs, their output stages are preamps (high level signal) and I have noticed that volume control can be superlative, eg EmmLabs DV2 or TotalDAC, while impedance adaptation comes not far away from a good preamp (150 ohms versus 50 ohms on RCA ).

If you go with speakers amps with tubes, a SS preamp is fine, more transparent. At least tonality could be only amp dependent. And so, good DAC preamps are very suitable. Integrated own also a preamp, so what’s better ? Connecting the DAC to the preamp input of the integrated or directly to the power section ? Mostly tastes choice imho.

Susvara takes a lot of profit from a tube speakers amp, at least on Classical. Hence interesting to explore good DAC/amps combos.
 
Jul 6, 2019 at 10:03 AM Post #2,713 of 11,810

lunarhjs

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I was skeptical of the value of adding the powerman to my formula s but was rather amazed at how much improvement there was when i did....with the powerman the music actually sounded louder as if there was more power simply because the background is blacker...eerily silent....everything in this crazy hobby is on the margin but this was a more substantial upgrade than i expected

I wonder how this pair would compare to the TT2.
 
Jul 6, 2019 at 10:10 AM Post #2,714 of 11,810

jlbrach

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I am using the Dave/blu2 with the formula s and powerman. The Dave is a better dac for sure
 

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