Hifiman Sundara amp recommendation

[oxide7]

Hi everyone. Really appreciate your input on good hardware to get the most out of my Sundara's. I learned alot about myself using these... before I used IEM's (ue11s) that sounded very good on basically everything. Also with the special bass armatures you can HEAR the bass but of course it wasn't like a cranium shaking experience.

I got some solo3's Beats for free with my laptop and though they are muddy, the bass is quite addictive. So I was expecting that with these Hifiman Sundara's but I learned that planars just don't do that(?)

I like how they sound for everything but with the electronic and hiphop type stuff they seem to not deliver that same type of bass experience. I'm not quite sure how to put it but I'm sure you all know what i mean. I resigned to that and just have been playing with my EQ in Apple Music to sort of get it out of it and just thought i needed to save up for good driver-based phones untill I read this about from some reviewer:

"Don't even think about buying a Magni 3. Best amp for $100, but it still sucks like Tucker Carlson. Much praise has been heaped on that thing but it lacks low end punch and sounds shrill, with a sticky volume knob to boot."

SO -- I am using the modi2 (the $99 one) and the Magni2 -- is what this guy saying true? Could I get MORE out of these phones with a better amp? And which one w/o breaking the bank? I also read that the modi-multibit will sound a lot better?

Happy to hear your thoughts.

 

[wje]

Are you looking to use the single-ended 1/4" TRS connector or the balanced connector for your Hifimans? Your preference could narrow down your choices. If you read the specs on many amps, the amps will produce more output through the balanced connectors vs. the 1/4" TRS connector. Again, this varies by amp model and manufacturer though.

 

[oxide7]

Right now I just have the TRS connector that came w/ my headphones. If i go in another direction I'll need to upgrade the cable too. I am open to it -- but all in all not looking to break the bank. If there is like an OMG match that requires the balanced, then I'm all ears.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hi everyone. Really appreciate your input on good hardware to get the most out of my Sundara's. I learned alot about myself using these... before I used IEM's (ue11s) that sounded very good on basically everything. Also with the special bass armatures you can HEAR the bass but of course it wasn't like a cranium shaking experience.

These are designed to reach as low as they can into the low bass region but being pro monitors they can't over emphasize any frequency range unless that's what a pro might need for them, like how the Aurisonics ASG series boosted the low end and some vocalists and drummers liked them so they can hear the beat and the drums above the guitars.

I got some solo3's Beats for free with my laptop and though they are muddy, the bass is quite addictive. So I was expecting that with these Hifiman Sundara's but I learned that planars just don't do that(?)

I like how they sound for everything but with the electronic and hiphop type stuff they seem to not deliver that same type of bass experience. I'm not quite sure how to put it but I'm sure you all know what i mean.

I'll put it in terms of car audio.

Your buying the UE11 and the HiFiMan Sundara is like looking online for car audio ideas and you come across SQ champ Scott Buwalda's car with three DLS 12in subwoofers each powered by a bridged output DLS A3 dual mono and one A3 dual mono is powering each pair of midbass, midrange, and tweeter up front, with all six amps in a rack in the trunk with teh subwoofer magnets sticking down from the metal behind the passenger headrests. You can't wait to have something like it to set off car alarms in the parking lot or rolling down the hood with all dat bass audible from six blocks away, yo, and no motherf****** coppers gonna stop you from bustin' caps, so y'all drag yo hommies out to some guy who has them IASCA trophies in his shop, you even ventured far from da hood just to get there. You pull up them pics of Buwalda's whip, and he instantly knows all about that damn Nissan, and he knows what to do...or so he thinks. Problem is, you don't understand that he got them trophies winning SQ competition, he does not understand that what you wanna do is have Lil Jon blasting from yo car audible from six blocks away, so when you go pick up yo car, you feel you got yo ass ripped off when his laptop is showing a flat measurement (like the UE11 and HiFiMan) down to 20hz but none of y'all homeboys could hear any of that 20hz tone rattling his shop windows so y'all whip out yo gunz and bust his cap.

So now y'all get back to da hood (me) and Imma tell ya, you don't need them flat response systems. Just like how you like the Beats Solo, if you wanted to set off them car alarms, Dawg stay away from DLS subwoofers with amps set to low gain and them in small boxes or open air. Dawg, what you need is to take them DLS subwoofaz and put them in a transmission line enclosure. Or bettah yet Dawg just forget about DLS and go for dee ultimate skull shakin', alarm pissin' experience and get yo self an MTX Jackhammer. No fool gon mess wit dat once you get it in yo whip wit dose 22in spinnerz.

Now that's pimpin'

Now Dawg if you kinda want that in a headphone yo best bet might actually save you some money. Sell the Sundara and get yo self a Superlux HD660. Buy some thicker, denser, wider opening leather earpads fo it and let it bust yo cap. You'll get a whole chunk a change you can blow on more ammo and let them hos take a rest so you don' have ta b****h slap them for a few mo nights, ya dig?

I resigned to that and just have been playing with my EQ in Apple Music to sort of get it out of it and just thought i needed to save up for good driver-based phones untill I read this about from some reviewer:

"Don't even think about buying a Magni 3. Best amp for $100, but it still sucks like Tucker Carlson. Much praise has been heaped on that thing but it lacks low end punch and sounds shrill, with a sticky volume knob to boot."

SO -- I am using the modi2 (the $99 one) and the Magni2 -- is what this guy saying true? Could I get MORE out of these phones with a better amp? And which one w/o breaking the bank? I also read that the modi-multibit will sound a lot better?

Some amps can reduce the bass, either because they're kind of shrill up top like the Magni and it obscures the low end, or they have very low damping factor (usually due to high output impedance on a low impedance load) or low current and low power you can't really crank them up to produce the bass that the headphone is capable of.

Some amps can preserve or add bass, but in the end, it all comes down to what the headphone can do. If the response isn't there and you're not using EQ compensated for by high power/current and high damping factor, then it ain't gon' be there.

HiFiMan Sundara response graph: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANSundara.pdf

Superlux HD330 (semi-open version) response graph

Look at them response graphs. The Sundara is practically flat from 1000hz down to 20hz. Pretty cool, but that's not what ya need for a cranium shakin' experience, jus' like how them DLS with three twelve inchers gettin' 600watts per channel are no match for one 22in Jackhammaer in a transmission line box gettin' 10,000watts, ya feelin' me? Look at the HD330 graph - it's 10dB louda at 60hz and 110hz than 1000hz, and still around 5dB louder at 20hz than at 1000hz. Y'all wanna shake them caps? Get the HD660. Same driver, closed back earcups. Whateva the HD330 is doin' better than them HiFiMans the HD660 is gon' do with slightly lower ambient noise (it's like eatin' them brownies instead of huffin' them leaves dawg!).

 

[oxide7]

Ok. Your condensing post makes it very clear, DAWG... these 2 goals exist in separate worlds. But I knew that before posting. Are you saying there is no way to bridge these worlds. The Sundara's are pretty good I'm just asking if there is more I can get out of it. If my current amp/etc are not good. Is there a good setup that will allow me to listen both classical and TheProdigy? Or is the answer here really just to have different headphones. If possible I would like to just have 1-2 pairs at my desk so I dont look like a douche, but from your answer maybe I do need to become a douche

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Ok. Your condensing post makes it very clear, DAWG... these 2 goals exist in separate worlds. But I knew that before posting. Are you saying there is no way to bridge these worlds. The Sundara's are pretty good I'm just asking if there is more I can get out of it. If my current amp/etc are not good. Is there a good setup that will allow me to listen both classical and TheProdigy?

It's possible to bridge that with speakers, like have two 12in subwoofaz in sealed boxes and have a receiver or DSP (plus maybe an amp gain controller) that would easily allow you to crank up the voltage on the subwoofer output on the receiver/DSP and the gain on the amp driving the sub, so even if it measures flat, you can just play it louder than everything else. That's why a car syste mor a home system with a subwoofer can play Dream Theater and then with a few adjustments and throwing all the windows and doors open it can blast Lil Jon in the parking lot.

You can't just get "cranium shaking" bass on a headphone but everything's relatively flat since

1) You do not have a separate bass driver driven by a separate amplifier whose gain can be cranked up higher than the amps driving all the other drivers in the system

2) It's very hard to design a single driver headphone that can handle everything from 20hz to 20,000hz well, and chances are if you're looking to spend more, it's already rare enough to get it from an altogether different headphone, but...

3) ...."cranium shaking bass" still isn't something that an amp will be capable of outside of having a bass boost switch and a headphone that doesn't even have that much bass response in terms of quantity. At best you can artificially boost the low end with a directed method like EQ or bass boost on the amp, but otherwise the only thing a better amp will do is for example make a kick on the floor drum have a clearer "THUMP!," not make a practically bass-less headphone (for your requirements) shake your cranium.

Or is the answer here really just to have different headphones

Maybe the LCD-2C but being open back you still get a higher noise floor than a Superlux HD660.

Or is the answer here really just to have different headphones. If possible I would like to just have 1-2 pairs at my desk so I dont look like a douche, but from your answer maybe I do need to become a douche

You could use the UE11 for classical and the Superlux HD660 for when you need cranium-shaking bass (and sell the Sundara), this way you won't be a "douche" since the UE11 can be hidden or at least justified by how it can be more easily used as a portable.

 

[oxide7]

Thanks. This is very helpful. I was very confused because the reviews of the Sundara said "good bass" -- that with the fact someone said my AMP is not good for Bass... but I guess technically what that means is different than what i thought. It's not necessarily the cranium shaker -- but its more about the reproduction; just like the IEMs. Ok that is becoming more clear to me now -- especially with your examples

Would LCDs' work well with my AMP Magni? Perhaps upgrading could be doable, but having to upgrade whole system would likely not be. And what do you mean about "higher noise floor" -- just the sound leaking in?

And about the shortcomings of the amp -- would something like a schiit loki be helpful? Or would that just introduce thing we dont want

thx

 

[wje]

The LCD "X" line has drivers that are 20 - 22 Ohm and perform well with amps that don't have a lot of power. The again, the Sundara has 37 Ohm drivers. Still quite a bit below the 300 Ohms that the Sennheiser HD-650 / HD-6xx have or the 150 Ohms that the HD-58x has.

With the reference to "noise floor" they are talking about the noise from the amp in general - not the noise you are hearing from the headphones not sealing properly when you wear them.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks. This is very helpful. I was very confused because the reviews of the Sundara said "good bass" -- that with the fact someone said my AMP is not good for Bass... but I guess technically what that means is different than what i thought. It's not necessarily the cranium shaker -- but its more about the reproduction; just like the IEMs. Ok that is becoming more clear to me now -- especially with your examples

There's quantity and quality. In the case of the HE4(xx) series (and a bit less for the HE400S) all the way to the Sundara, it means quality and refinement in how it measures practically flat from 1000hz all the way down to 20hz. You're not going to get inaccurate reprdouction in that range - nothing like, as an extreme example, the Grado Prestige series which has a strong upper bass response that is mostly satisfying for the thump but there will be times where it seems to lack the lower thud!!! or the really low bass from stringed instruments or organs are barely there unless you're in a very quiet room.

Again, it's like how if you were in the wrong part of a car audio competition/meet, you'd hear people praising a Focal or DLS system (or even ones with an Image Dynamics or JL Audio subwoofer) for the "good" bass, but then you get in the car and you think the bass isn't there. Then the owner shows you it is by shutting off the output from the DSP to the subwoofer and suddenly the low end isn't there at all anymore. If you're looking for quantity you have to go over to the other side of the parking lot that has to stay away because they have cranium shaking, windshield shattering, chassis twisting, coins jumping off the van roof BASSSSSS from their HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE MTX Jackhammer and Kicker Solobaric subwoofaz that would totally give away your position to them pigs (screw tha powlice!) or any fool you wanna hit with guns sticking sideways out the top of the windows.

This is dee bass you want for hiphop (it just sounds like total crap because of the weak mic them fools used)

Would LCDs' work well with my AMP Magni? Perhaps upgrading could be doable, but having to upgrade whole system would likely not be.

There's nothing else that would work as well for $100, unless you go with lower Class A output like with the Pangea HP101. But if you already have the Magni I wouldn't get that (especially since the tube swap procedure for it is a total PITA).

And what do you mean about "higher noise floor" -- just the sound leaking in?

For that last post, yes, since the open cups on the LCD-2C isn't going to even try to keep noise out.

The problem is that not hearing any audible noise source is not exactly an indication that there is no noise floor, just that nothing sticks out.

It's like building a silent PC that you can't hear in your room but put it in Silent PC Review's testing rig and it will still fail. LinusTechTips built one using a BeQuiet! chassis, fans, and CPU cooler, and it still failed, most likely thanks to the blower coolers and weak heatsinks on the GTX Titan in it (should have upgraded it to a Prolimatech Mk26 GPU cooler with BeQuiet! fans on it spinning at ridiculously low rpm and let most of the heat transfer done by the thermal mass of the huge heatsink than by moving air to take the heat off the metal).

And about the shortcomings of the amp -- would something like a schiit loki be helpful? Or would that just introduce thing we dont want

I'd much rather use software EQ and be able to target the exact frequencies I want boosted or cut.

The LCD "X" line has drivers that are 20 - 22 Ohm and perform well with amps that don't have a lot of power. The again, the Sundara has 37 Ohm drivers. Still quite a bit below the 300 Ohms that the Sennheiser HD-650 / HD-6xx have or the 150 Ohms that the HD-58x has.

That depends. If the impedance is low but the sensitivity is also low it would take a severely voltage limited amp to have a problem with a 300ohm headphone that has a 97dB/1mW sensitivity.

With the reference to "noise floor" they are talking about the noise from the amp in general - not the noise you are hearing from the headphones not sealing properly when you wear them.

In the last reply I was referring to the open back LCD-2C.

 

[obsidyen]

My suggestion is LCD 2 Closed Back.

 

[oxide7]

I played with the EQ and i have to admit that these Sundara's sound VERY good. Even for things that bump. Oh my I did run 20h of pink noise -- not sure if that made a differenec but I am ALOT more happy now than when we first started talking. I think first the edification here to let me appreciate more of what I had, and the tuning -- now these things bump!

I could only imagine LCD Closed backs.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I played with the EQ and i have to admit that these Sundara's sound VERY good. Even for things that bump. Oh my I did run 20h of pink noise -- not sure if that made a differenec but I am ALOT more happy now than when we first started talking. I think first the edification here to let me appreciate more of what I had, and the tuning -- now these things bump!

One advantage of planars is that since they aren't moving the same way as the more violent pumping motion of dynamic drivers is that they're less likely to run into driver distortion from physical stress or even hitting max excursion as quickly.

I could only imagine LCD Closed backs.

I've seen people listening to bass songs on the LCD-2 and the earcups were physically moving, so in theory (along with lower auditory masking because it's weaker all throughout past 1000hz) they'd have more audible bass.

 

[oxide7]

One shocking revelation is that I may already be sitting on the perfect cans. I have UE11's and I haven't thought about them for a while, but plugging them into my amp... omg these things rock. I am considering some LCD 2's as you have recommended, but the clarity of the IEMs and the Bass -- surprisingly -- is quite amazing. I can't imagine anything better. I am leary that if i do get a lcd I will need a better amp too

 

[Chad Michael]

One advantage of planars is that since they aren't moving the same way as the more violent pumping motion of dynamic drivers is that they're less likely to run into driver distortion from physical stress or even hitting max excursion as quickly.

I will second that. Was thinking the very same thing about the Sundara...

Since the original topic was amp recommendations: I went with the JDS Labs Atom. Good to go, so very nice. It is as if the phones say "thank you for the power, and stepping on the gas".

 

[oxide7]

Just remembered this thread and wanted to post a follow up. I ended up getting the LCD-x and omg they are capable. And they hit the bass all when I need bass. In the eq I can turn it up quite high and they just deliver. Honestly the sundars left a bad taste in my mouth for all planar. But the lcd redeemed that and then some !