[El_Doug]

These graphs are very very interesting, and an excellent beginning for research into the matter   I'd love to see more info, such as THD, noise (the hiss is terrible on the hifiman stock amp), waterfall graphs, phase, etc.  I just may have to buy a clip to compare to my hifiman  
 
Quote:

Stereo crosstalk measures this. The HM-801 performed poorly.
 

Some of us actually purposely add crossfeed into our full sized rigs, to offset stereo separation that is too aggressive for headphones - pure separation alone, while it relates to soundstage, is not a measure of soundstage  

 

[prone2phone]

hm801 has better crosstalk with 16ohm headphones than headstage-arrow amp, maybe dfkt started this thread just to entertain himself?

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Some of us actually purposely add crossfeed into our full sized rigs, to offset stereo separation that is too aggressive for headphones - pure separation alone, while it relates to soundstage, is not a measure of soundstage  

It's a measure of potential soundstage in electronic, non-mechanical components. As cross talk approaches -infinity, the soudstage approaches 1.0 of a headphones potential. It's basic maths.
 
You're reducing how far apart the sounds are (the soundstage) when you apply a crossfeed to make them less fatiguing. Or are you going to argue that your audition works differently to everyone elses?
 
Unless your comment was a jest at pedantry based on my choice of word (specifically "measures"), which was to make the concept easier to understand. In which case I forgive you

 

[El_Doug]

POTENTIAL being the key word.  Your statement is correct assuming we are using binaural, or even 2-mic live recordings.  However with today's overprocessed recordings, which make use of hard-panning, soundstage becomes non-existent when a guitar is "moved" all the way to the left during mixing.  A system with -infinity crosstalk and zero crossfeed, when driving headphones, would not display the guitar as being in the left of a soundstage, but rather directly blaring into our left ears. 
 
We use crossfeed to purposely introduce crosstalk, in order to push such hard-panned instruments back into the soundstage.  It is from this perspective that I suggested that crosstalk measurements were only a beginning to understanding a certain device's soundstage, and not the end-all, definitive measure. 
 
Quote:

It's a measure of potential soundstage in electronic, non-mechanical components. As cross talk approaches -infinity, the soudstage approaches 1.0 of a headphones potential. It's basic maths.
 
You're reducing how far apart the sounds are (the soundstage) when you apply a crossfeed to make them less fatiguing. Or are you going to argue that your audition works differently to everyone elses?
 
Unless your comment was a jest at pedantry based on my choice of word (specifically "measures"), which was to make the concept easier to understand. In which case I forgive you

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Stereo crosstalk measures this. The HM-801 performed poorly.

Quote:

Some of us actually purposely add crossfeed into our full sized rigs, to offset stereo separation that is too aggressive for headphones - pure separation alone, while it relates to soundstage, is not a measure of soundstage  

I agree with El_Doug. Soundstage isn't defined by crosstalk at all if it reaches 50 or 60 dB. I have crossfeeded my whole music collection, and soundstage is still excellent, in some respect (naturalness) even better than originally.

 
Quote:

It's a measure of potential soundstage in electronic, non-mechanical components. As cross talk approaches -infinity, the soudstage approaches 1.0 of a headphones potential. It's basic maths. You're reducing how far apart the sounds are (the soundstage) when you apply a crossfeed to make them less fatiguing. Or are you going to argue that your audition works differently to everyone elses?

 
You don't seem to understand the concept of crossfeed. It consists of a specific crosstalk, predominantly in the (low) bass, clearly less in the midrange and preferrably not at all in the treble. Additionally it implies a phase distortion mimicking the natural runtime differences of excentric sound events. With a good implementation (like mine

) threedimensionality and realism of soundstage are fully left intact. Channel separation has nothing to do with it, apart from cases of extremely low figures not present in modern amps. Moreover the perception of sonic depth is a function of resolution and accuracy, insofar as they facilitate the (unconscious) detection of spatial cues on the recording (separation between direct instrument sound and reflections). With headphones the preservation of the outer-ear function for decoding spatial cues adds to this.
.

 

[Anaxilus]

 

[Sonic 748i]

Quote:

I'm with ya'

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

This type of test just can be as a reference, because I don't think out there got any equipment that can measure soundstage, vocal sweet or harsh, imaging, sound position/instrument separation, bass tight or not etc. A good sounding system/DAP is not just frequency range/response.
 
Is just like did u believe in God/ghost, if yes can u prove or can u use some/any equipment to measure/prove?

 
Sorry for my poor english.

 
Quoted For Truth. 
 
Bingo!  We have a winner here! 
 
BTW, I don't think a lot of you guys realize, how high, the high frequencies we're talking here.  Little to no music exists in these ranges on purpose.
 
Check it out for yourself.  My personal hearing tops out at about 17K, I can just barely hear 18K, but I need to turn up the volume a lot. 
 
http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/hearing_test/
 
 
-Ed
 

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

You don't seem to understand the concept of crossfeed. It consists of a specific crosstalk, predominantly in the (low) bass, clearly less in the midrange and preferrably not at all in the treble. Additionally it implies a phase distortion mimicking the natural runtime differences of excentric sound events. With a good implementation (like mine

) threedimensionality and realism of soundstage are fully left intact. Channel separation has nothing to do with it, apart from cases of extremely low figures not present in modern amps. Moreover the perception of sonic depth is a function of resolution and accuracy, insofar as they facilitate the (unconscious) detection of spatial cues on the recording (separation between direct instrument sound and reflections). With headphones the preservation of the outer-ear function for decoding spatial cues adds to this. .

Actually, you are the one who seems to have problems understanding the concept of crossfeed. Channel separation has everything to do with it. There is no possible way to crossfeed and have 100% of the "soundstage" intact. Can it be improved for headphone listening? Certainly it can, but you are reducing it by decreasing stereo bias.
 
I suggest you at least do some preliminary reading on it before posting about it or think about this in a more logical (i.e. less false) way of thinking.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfeed
 
You can use crossfeed all you like, but a device that has it without the ability to turn it off is inherently flawed. Ideally we should be aiming for channel separation that is of the same dynamic range as cds or higher, and crossfeeds should be left optional (as I think meier audio does on their amps if I recall correctly)
 
The hifiman is -45dB crosstalk, so it doesnt reach your magic number. You can do the calculation regarding how much louder 50 dB is, as I am too tired

 

[Edwood]

Personally, I prefer not to use artificial Crossfeed software-wise or in amps.  The only natural crossfeed I liked was in the K1000, which operate more like speakers.
 
-Ed

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
Quoted For Truth. 
 
Bingo!  We have a winner here! 
 
BTW, I don't think a lot of you guys realize, how high, the high frequencies we're talking here.  Little to no music exists in these ranges on purpose.
 
Check it out for yourself.  My personal hearing tops out at about 17K, I can just barely hear 18K, but I need to turn up the volume a lot. 
 
http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/hearing_test/
 
 
-Ed
 

Well, as someone who has spent some time doing RTA's on various systems I will say that even if you can't hear a particular frequency doesn't mean the presence or absence of that frequency does not impact the quality of other frequencies or sound in general.  Just my experience.  Back to my

 

[Antony6555]

I think the fr graph is pretty damning. I was looking forward to the hm801. Ha, at least now I feel better about my ipod set up right now.

 

[WalkGood]

Quote:

I think the fr graph is pretty damning. I was looking forward to the hm801. Ha, at least now I feel better about my ipod set up right now.

And just think how many ipod's you could get for $790.00

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Well, as someone who has spent some time doing RTA's on various systems I will say that even if you can't hear a particular frequency doesn't mean the presence or absence of that frequency does not impact the quality of other frequencies or sound in general.  Just my experience.  Back to my

 
Not so much in this case, as I can hear a positive difference quite clearly.  Unless the measured roll off is responsible for the improved sound. 
 
-Ed

 

[tds101]

I'm just enjoying the show,......................