[maxxvoltz]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. My name is Max and I'm from Milan, Italy. I'm in love with headphones but I'm far from being an expert. I own a Meze 99 Classic, a Prosone Proline 2500 and, from yesterday, a HIFIman he400i 2020. I never tried planar magnetic before and, to my amateurish ears, they sound simply amazing, very different from the other two headphones I own (that I love). I enjoyed the openness of the sound and the incredible precision! Breathtaking!
I'm using a Fiio m9 from the balanced output to use them and, to me, they sound very well. I never go with the volume beyond 90/95 (it goes up to 130, very Spinal Tap style) and it seems all good. But I've been reading many posts in which experts say that you require a dedicated amp to really make those headphones shine, but to me they sound very well, with dense basses and extremely sharp rendition. Are my ears really not educated? Am I losing something using just a weak Fiio m9?
I'm not one who listens to super high volume so I'm a little confused. Thanks to anyone who might help and have a lovely day!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. My name is Max and I'm from Milan, Italy. I'm in love with headphones but I'm far from being an expert. I own a Meze 99 Classic, a Prosone Proline 2500 and, from yesterday, a HIFIman he400i 2020. I never tried planar magnetic before and, to my amateurish ears, they sound simply amazing, very different from the other two headphones I own (that I love). I enjoyed the openness of the sound and the incredible precision! Breathtaking!
I'm using a Fiio m9 from the balanced output to use them and, to me, they sound very well. I never go with the volume beyond 90/95 (it goes up to 130, very Spinal Tap style) and it seems all good. But I've been reading many posts in which experts say that you require a dedicated amp to really make those headphones shine, but to me they sound very well, with dense basses and extremely sharp rendition. Are my ears really not educated? Am I losing something using just a weak Fiio m9?
I'm not one who listens to super high volume so I'm a little confused. Thanks to anyone who might help and have a lovely day!

You get more power while keeping the distortion and noise at the same or lower level.

If you're using the same power level but it's at a markedly lower noise level, assuming ambient noise where you are isn't a problem (note: it probably is, people always underestimate this), you can hear improvements like more details and deeper, more solid bass hits.

If you're using more power without much, if any, penalty in distortion and noise, then the above differences may be more pronounced.

The question though is whether you're not cranking it up because you're hitting distortion on the M9 or you really just can't take it going any louder regardless of how clean the sound actually is. At a 93dB/1mW sensitivity level it could be the latter, but there's no way for me to be more definite about guessing as to what it is since I don't have the M9 and the HE400i to hear for myself what it sounds like at 95 vs 110, much less compare both to my amp. And even if I could there's no guarantee you'd perceive the difference.

 

[maxxvoltz]

You get more power while keeping the distortion and noise at the same or lower level.

If you're using the same power level but it's at a markedly lower noise level, assuming ambient noise where you are isn't a problem (note: it probably is, people always underestimate this), you can hear improvements like more details and deeper, more solid bass hits.

If you're using more power without much, if any, penalty in distortion and noise, then the above differences may be more pronounced.

The question though is whether you're not cranking it up because you're hitting distortion on the M9 or you really just can't take it going any louder regardless of how clean the sound actually is. At a 93dB/1mW sensitivity level it could be the latter, but there's no way for me to be more definite about guessing as to what it is since I don't have the M9 and the HE400i to hear for myself what it sounds like at 95 vs 110, much less compare both to my amp. And even if I could there's no guarantee you'd perceive the difference.

Thanks for your answer ProtegeManiac! So more power, to this kind of headphones, means not simply the possibility to go higher in volume (as said, I'm not into that) but to get a richer sound. If I crank the m9 up I don't hear distortion, simply it doesn't go above a certain volume with the HE400i (the Meze are easier and they go deafening if I crank up the volume).

I was thinking of the Fiio K5pro which seems a lot more powerful than my m9, but I'll need to wait for a little (can't indulge too much in this passion right now...).

Thank you again! Have a nice day!

 

[megabigeye]

So more power, to this kind of headphones, means not simply the possibility to go higher in volume (as said, I'm not into that) but to get a richer sound.

No. I think you're misunderstanding what ProtegeManiac said (or maybe I did (but I don't think so)).

The ONLY thing power effects is how loud your headphones can get. Things like SNR and distortion can affect how it sounds, but both low- and high-power amps can have low or high distortion and noise, and thus sound either good or bad. Similarly, sometimes if you have a lot of ambient noise-- like a running refrigerator, HVAC, etc.-- some of the subtleties of the music can get lost below that noise. You can "recover" those subtleties by turning up the volume knob; but in reality nothing is actually being recovered, it's just louder so you can hear it more clearly. Like asking somebody to speak louder in a crowded restaurant. Higher power amplifiers get louder than lower powered ones, so it can seem like they're clearer, but really they're just louder.

If your M9 is loud enough for you and it sounds good to you, then there's no need for anything more powerful.

 

[maxxvoltz]

No. I think you're misunderstanding what ProtegeManiac said (or maybe I did (but I don't think so)).

The ONLY thing power effects is how loud your headphones can get. Things like SNR and distortion can affect how it sounds, but both low- and high-power amps can have low or high distortion and noise, and thus sound either good or bad. Similarly, sometimes if you have a lot of ambient noise-- like a running refrigerator, HVAC, etc.-- some of the subtleties of the music can get lost below that noise. You can "recover" those subtleties by turning up the volume knob; but in reality nothing is actually being recovered, it's just louder so you can hear it more clearly. Like asking somebody to speak louder in a crowded restaurant. Higher power amplifiers get louder than lower powered ones, so it can seem like they're clearer, but really they're just louder.

If your M9 is loud enough for you and it sounds good to you, then there's no need for anything more powerful.

Thaks megabigeye, it's pretty confusing to me and I'm trying to understand better some concepts... Mabe my confusion comes from some threads in which I read that a better, more powerful amplifier offers richer bass and such, as if a weaker one, at the same volume level, it's not powerful enough to make those basses sound. This is what is confusing to me: what I'm losing with a weak amp like the Fiio m9 is simply the power to make the headphones sound louder? Or do I lose richer bass and more powerful midrange, as if the he400i need something stronger to sound better? Thanks again

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for your answer ProtegeManiac! So more power, to this kind of headphones, means not simply the possibility to go higher in volume (as said, I'm not into that) but to get a richer sound

I wouldn't really use "richer" to describe the sound since at best that term will only apply if the distortion pattern of the weaker amp circuit tends to make it sound thinner when pushed, so an amp that doesn't distort at that output level (or distorts the other way) will sound richer by comparison.

If the weaker amp were distorting to make the sound warmer then a cleaner sounding amp will sound lean by comparison if you actually like the distortion that makes the overall sound a lot warmer.

If I crank the m9 up I don't hear distortion, simply it doesn't go above a certain volume with the HE400i

Distortion in playback systems isn't exactly the same as in electric guitars where stepping on the pedal distorts the acoustic-like sound and makes for what we know as guitar distortion in rock music.

Also even that isn't only one kind of distortion...there's overdrive, fuzz, there are different flavors of each and there's Metal and MetalZone from Boss..

I can't say for certain with the M9 but as an example you can hear a Yamaha HT receiver rated for 125w X 5channels and think the sound is clean, until I bring in a NAD 304 rated for 35watts per channel and the sound is richer (which in this context is because of how the Yamaha distorts by comparison to an actual clean sound) and clearer with better low end. Because what you don't see there is that the NAD 304's 35wpc was measured with distortion at something like 0.001% THD; the Yamaha might not even put on the fine print that they measured 125watts with "2% THD+N, one channel driven" (and then assumed their power supply circuit can maintain 125watts if five are running, but listening to it driving only two channels says otherwise).

(the Meze are easier and they go deafening if I crank up the volume).

IIRC these are 99dB/1mW, vs the HiFiMan at 93dB/1mW. Given the same amount of power they'd be 6dB louder, or roughly 50% louder by human perception.

I was thinking of the Fiio K5pro which seems a lot more powerful than my m9, but I'll need to wait for a little (can't indulge too much in this passion right now...).

I'd say save up, the M9 isn't exactly that bad to warrant rushing the amp, so you might as well get a really nice amp with lower noise, like the Meier Jazz FF. One bonus feature: Crossfeed. If you don't want to fiddle with custom settings for simulating speakers on NeutronMusicPlayer on the M9 just flip the CF switch.

 

[megabigeye]

Thaks megabigeye, it's pretty confusing to me and I'm trying to understand better some concepts... Mabe my confusion comes from some threads in which I read that a better, more powerful amplifier offers richer bass and such, as if a weaker one, at the same volume level, it's not powerful enough to make those basses sound. This is what is confusing to me: what I'm losing with a weak amp like the Fiio m9 is simply the power to make the headphones sound louder? Or do I lose richer bass and more powerful midrange, as if the he400i need something stronger to sound better? Thanks again

You're welcome!

Yeah, unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in audiophilia. It is confusing trying to figure it all out and understand it.

There are a lot of reasons that I think people misunderstand about the relationship of power and headphones/amplifiers. First is that "more power is better" is oft-repeated, and the more you read it or hear it the more likely you are to believe it to be true. If everybody repeated that the moon is made out of cheese, eventually you might come to think, maybe I'm wrong; maybe it is made of cheese.
This can lead to a bias to believe it to be true, and then it might seem to be true based on observation, and it can be extremely difficult to separate what seems true and what actually is true.
Next, louder always sounds preferable to softer. That's just the way we hear. It's why we do things like turn up the volume on songs we really like— so that we can hear it more clearly. More powerful amplifiers get louder than less powerful ones and people confuse louder for better.
People also often compare two amps but only focus on the power differences— because it's relatively easy to understand— rather than all of the other differences— which are more difficult to understand.
I'm sure there are other reasons that people misunderstand about power, but I'm just not thinking of them right now.

I'm not familiar with the M9 or the K5, so I can't say for certain that the only audible difference is volume. My advice is always to enjoy what you have until you can't anymore. If the M9 sounds good to you and gets loud enough for you, then it is good enough and not worth upgrading.

 

[maxxvoltz]

@ProtegeManiac
Thanks for the explanations, truly it is a field in which there's a lot to learn. I think I got what you say when you talk about distortion, it happened to me when I tried to go very loud with the Fiio volume and the music, well, it kind of "break" a little, losing all the clarity... It was a super HD file from amazon music, technically it's like the master of tidal, therefore I don't think it was a problem of the track but maybe I went to the limit of the Fiio, which is not volume but, as you clearly put it, distortion at high volume... I checked the amp you suggest and it seems very good to me, therefore I'll save money for it in the future The only thing I didn't get was the cf switch, I guess it refers to the Corda Jazz, right? Nevertheless thank you for all the great explanations!!

@megabigeye
I agree with you! It reminded me of the "megapixel war" in the photo/video equipment. It's a field I know very well since I worked with photo/video equipment for more than 20 years and to me it's always surprising when people bring the "my camera has so many megapixels" sentence in order to describe how good is a piece of equipment, whereas a camera like Arri Alexa filmed all the biggest blockbusters of the past decade and it's a little more than the half of 4K... There's a lot to learn, but I really like the headphones world and I will take my time, and as you said as long as my Fiio m9 sounds good to my ears, I'll keep it! At a certain point, I'll investigate better stuff like the one ProegeManiac was talking about... Thanks for answering me, have a great day!

 

[SilverEars]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. My name is Max and I'm from Milan, Italy. I'm in love with headphones but I'm far from being an expert. I own a Meze 99 Classic, a Prosone Proline 2500 and, from yesterday, a HIFIman he400i 2020. I never tried planar magnetic before and, to my amateurish ears, they sound simply amazing, very different from the other two headphones I own (that I love). I enjoyed the openness of the sound and the incredible precision! Breathtaking!
I'm using a Fiio m9 from the balanced output to use them and, to me, they sound very well. I never go with the volume beyond 90/95 (it goes up to 130, very Spinal Tap style) and it seems all good. But I've been reading many posts in which experts say that you require a dedicated amp to really make those headphones shine, but to me they sound very well, with dense basses and extremely sharp rendition. Are my ears really not educated? Am I losing something using just a weak Fiio m9?
I'm not one who listens to super high volume so I'm a little confused. Thanks to anyone who might help and have a lovely day!

Welcome to the world of open-back headphones. Once you go open-back... you know what they say.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

@ProtegeManiac
Thanks for the explanations, truly it is a field in which there's a lot to learn. I think I got what you say when you talk about distortion, it happened to me when I tried to go very loud with the Fiio volume and the music, well, it kind of "break" a little, losing all the clarity...

On my Meier Cantate.2 and HD600 I'm deaf before that happens. And depending on the source (ie like a really good CDP, or I set my phone feeding it a USB signal to airplane mode) no noise either.

@ProtegeManiac
... It was a super HD file from amazon music, technically it's like the master of tidal, therefore I don't think it was a problem of the track...

Or it could be the recording and mastering. Regardless of the file format it still depends on how the track was recorded and mastered.

Think of it like looking at a RAW file from a good camera but whoever had the camera has no idea what he's doing so the exposure is still wrong and you have really blown highlights or shadows that obscure detail, or even without pixel peeping you know the focus is off.

@ProtegeManiac
The only thing I didn't get was the cf switch, I guess it refers to the Corda Jazz, right? Nevertheless thank you for all the great explanations!!

Yes. It's the switch in the middle. If feeds some of the frequencies above a cut off point across both channels to simulate hearing both speakers with both ears in a room instead of one headphone driver per ear as per normal headphone listening.

It's optimized for a more balanced setting that would be audible without screwing things up, as opposed to fiddling through settings on Neutron or just using the three defaults, more so if you don't even like the interface of that music player or want to use Crossfeed on music that isn't locally stored music that works on a player app like Neutron (ex your own FLAC files).

Note: if you're listening to a binaural recording, keep any Crossfeed feature disabled since it was recorded across both channels with this kind of compensation in mind, and that mastering is tailored by the engineer for that recording.

@megabigeye
I agree with you! It reminded me of the "megapixel war" in the photo/video equipment. It's a field I know very well since I worked with photo/video equipment for more than 20 years and to me it's always surprising when people bring the "my camera has so many megapixels" sentence in order to describe how good is a piece of equipment, whereas a camera like Arri Alexa filmed all the biggest blockbusters of the past decade and it's a little more than the half of 4K...

Think of it this way: at some point format power quantity is basically going to land you at the audio equivalent of "but do you need to print a billboard?" Or how some people who weren't really reading into the equipment asked why I was still on a 12mp X100 (the OG one) and the only camera I bought after that was the X-T10 (and I bought NOS in 2018, with the X-T20 already available), and I can't help but want to laugh at how the 24mp NEX-7 came out with double the pixels soon after the X100 and the noise performance was laughable apart from how much the X100 with WCL-X100 cost back then vs a NEX-7 and the 16/2.8. My friend who got the D800E even thought he'd never buy another camera, ever, until he was too lazy to bring the damn thing while watching me clamber over rocks with just an X-T10 and a wide lens on one shoulder and the X100 in a small shoulder holster on the other shoulder. Now when he wants to get an X-T4 or X-H4, and has no interest in the G-mount system (then again he has a 14-24 and doesn't give a hoot about ND filters, so I guess he just wants the 8-16).

 

[maxxvoltz]

Thanks for the super exhaustive reply!! I understand what you're talking about, referring to RAW in photography. It's a constant research, and if the master isn't good enough even the best pair of headphones will not sound well... And I am with you in the battle against useless megapixels

I did some research on the Corda Jazz and looks really nice, and now it's on a black Friday offer. My only doubt is tjag I would connect it to my mac or to the fiio m9 with a mini jack to rca cable... Do you think it would be a bad connection? Its pretty difficult to have a clear idea only looking at the specs... Thanks again for the answer!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for the super exhaustive reply!! I understand what you're talking about, referring to RAW in photography. It's a constant research, and if the master isn't good enough even the best pair of headphones will not sound well... And I am with you in the battle against useless megapixels

Or worse, like the Fuji X100F having noticeably softer resolution in the center at max aperture, which wasn't apparent up until the X100T's 16mp sensor but then was noticeable with the new 24mp sensor in the X100F, so they had to quickly follow up with an X100V with a new lens and the new 26mp sensor.

I did some research on the Corda Jazz and looks really nice, and now it's on a black Friday offer. My only doubt is tjag I would connect it to my mac or to the fiio m9 with a mini jack to rca cable... Do you think it would be a bad connection? Its pretty difficult to have a clear idea only looking at the specs... Thanks again for the answer!

As long as you use a good quality cable, not really. Although double check M9 reviews and check the manual on how to set it to Line Output.