[garunamodi]

  hahaha... yeaaa, the funny thing about dacs is that there is absolutely NOTHING that you can use to objectively rate a DAC.
 
...not price, not specs, not the chip used, not the parts, not opening it up & looking inside, not even an exact blueprint of the build.....
maybe just the 'brand name' and subjective impressions lol. god must be heaven for those companies, considering how many 'reviews' out there nowadays are more like advertisements/endorsements.
 
I think it is prettyyyyy hilariousssss. I bet if there was some sort of objective way to measure and compare performance, some of the insanely ridiculous dac pricing might be reined in. Also really interesting how dacs can greatly outprice headphones and amplifiers when their impact on the sound is the most minimal. only a personal opinion of course. no need for anyone to get offended. 

It's pretty easy to objectively measure a DAC. All you need are ways of measuring how faithfully it reproduces the original audio signal. If you look at the ODAC's release page there are lots of measurements of it.
 
That said this only really helps comparing DACs which claim to be 100% accurate. As with amps I fully agree using a different DAC which intentionally introduces distortion could lead to better "synergy" but I have a hard time working out how to do that without tubes, and DACs are SS as far as I know.
 
As for your last paragraph, I'll just point out that many say the same thing about cables. But it is an accepted fact of this hobby that some people have way too much money to blow, and if they're willing to prop up the industry by buying outrageously priced equipment for little-to-no improvement I don't care. It's their money, I can advise against it but I can't, and shouldn't, tell them what to do with their money.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  hahaha... yeaaa, the funny thing about dacs is that there is absolutely NOTHING that you can use to objectively rate a DAC.
 
...not price, not specs, not the chip used, not the parts, not opening it up & looking inside, not even an exact blueprint of the build.....
maybe just the 'brand name' and subjective impressions lol. god must be heaven for those companies, considering how many 'reviews' out there nowadays are more like advertisements/endorsements.
 
I think it is prettyyyyy hilariousssss. I bet if there was some sort of objective way to measure and compare performance, some of the insanely ridiculous dac pricing might be reined in. Also really interesting how dacs can greatly outprice headphones and amplifiers when their impact on the sound is the most minimal. only a personal opinion of course. no need for anyone to get offended. 

Normally I also feel that the headphones themselves are the biggest determinant of the final sound (which is of course true); however, I think we may be underemphasizing the impact of amplification and DA conversion in the chain. Last night I had a revelation moment. Just for ****s and giggles I decided to use my new Vmoda XS with my A18/Gungnir combination. Prior to that I had only been using them with the E12 and my Z10 with the excellent player Neutron installed. Now part of the debate (think O2) is that as long as an amp is capable and has the proper specifications the sound should be extremely close regardless of price (assuming design factors of sonics the same). Same is often said about DACs. So with my portable rig I liked the XS, but I didn't really find the instrument separation that great, good, but not great, and the bass was kind of wooly and a little congested feeling (keep in mind these are designed to be portables, not reference headphones). Lat night through my home rig I was astounded by how good the XS sounded, I mean astounded. The only thing that changed were the amp and DAC (and of course the player JRiver). Neutron is an excellent player and is also bit perfect output so I feel that this increase in sound quality is explainable for the most part through the amp/DAC change.
 
So, assuming that this is true that would most certainly provide anecdotal evidence that amps and DACs that are a little upstream do have sonic advantages over less technically accomplished gear. I don't mean to suggest this is always going to be true, the scientist in me realizes that I can only derive inferences about this particular setup. Anyway, that was something I felt worth sharing.

 

[Rem0o]

Had the same experience with a few cheap headphones. Crazy how good of an improvement you can hear once you plug them into something decent.

 

[hifimanrookie]

Normally I also feel that the headphones themselves are the biggest determinant of the final sound (which is of course true); however, I think we may be underemphasizing the impact of amplification and DA conversion in the chain. Last night I had a revelation moment. Just for ****s and giggles I decided to use my new Vmoda XS with my A18/Gungnir combination. Prior to that I had only been using them with the E12 and my Z10 with the excellent player Neutron installed. Now part of the debate (think O2) is that as long as an amp is capable and has the proper specifications the sound should be extremely close regardless of price (assuming design factors of sonics the same). Same is often said about DACs. So with my portable rig I liked the XS, but I didn't really find the instrument separation that great, good, but not great, and the bass was kind of wooly and a little congested feeling (keep in mind these are designed to be portables, not reference headphones). Lat night through my home rig I was astounded by how good the XS sounded, I mean astounded. The only thing that changed were the amp and DAC (and of course the player JRiver). Neutron is an excellent player and is also bit perfect output so I feel that this increase in sound quality is explainable for the most part through the amp/DAC change.

So, assuming that this is true that would most certainly provide anecdotal evidence that amps and DACs that are a little upstream do have sonic advantages over less technically accomplished gear. I don't mean to suggest this is always going to be true, the scientist in me realizes that I can only derive inferences about this particular setup. Anyway, that was something I felt worth sharing.

Lolz..this is what i am saying for a long time..mostly to unbelievers here on this thread

 

[398698]

I had just received my third pair of defective headphones, and I emailed to complain it was my third pair. Now I'm about to receive my fourth after being contacted by one of the Hifiman reps on this forum. They are nice enough to allow me to return my headphones after I receive my new ones and are giving me a free travel case as well. Hopefully the headphones come in fine this time. Free travel case though? Some next level right there...

 

[ThurstonX]

  I had just received my third pair of defective headphones, and I emailed to complain it was my third pair. Now I'm about to receive my fourth after being contacted by one of the Hifiman reps on this forum. They are nice enough to allow me to return my headphones after I receive my new ones and are giving me a free travel case as well. Hopefully the headphones come in fine this time. Free travel case though? Some next level right there...

 
Here's to hoping these will be aesthetically and functionally flawless.  I think they ought to throw a pair of FocusPad-As in that travel case.  That would approximate just compensation, IMO.  I bet you're gonna love 'em once you finally get some serious head time with a working pair.
 

 

[tuna47]

I have an sacd player not high end I tested connecting it directly to my Lyr vs same player and music regular cd sacd (disc can be played either way) through my bifrost uber. The winner clearly was regular cd through bifrost much cleaner and better separation of instruments

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Normally I also feel that the headphones themselves are the biggest determinant of the final sound (which is of course true); however, I think we may be underemphasizing the impact of amplification and DA conversion in the chain. Last night I had a revelation moment. Just for ****s and giggles I decided to use my new Vmoda XS with my A18/Gungnir combination. Prior to that I had only been using them with the E12 and my Z10 with the excellent player Neutron installed. Now part of the debate (think O2) is that as long as an amp is capable and has the proper specifications the sound should be extremely close regardless of price (assuming design factors of sonics the same). Same is often said about DACs. So with my portable rig I liked the XS, but I didn't really find the instrument separation that great, good, but not great, and the bass was kind of wooly and a little congested feeling (keep in mind these are designed to be portables, not reference headphones). Lat night through my home rig I was astounded by how good the XS sounded, I mean astounded. The only thing that changed were the amp and DAC (and of course the player JRiver). Neutron is an excellent player and is also bit perfect output so I feel that this increase in sound quality is explainable for the most part through the amp/DAC change.

So, assuming that this is true that would most certainly provide anecdotal evidence that amps and DACs that are a little upstream do have sonic advantages over less technically accomplished gear. I don't mean to suggest this is always going to be true, the scientist in me realizes that I can only derive inferences about this particular setup. Anyway, that was something I felt worth sharing.

Thank you for sharing your experience! The ODAC and O2 are really nothing new, there was a group in the '70's that strongly and vociferously expounded good measurements must equal good sound, and all amplifiers (DAC's weren't around yet) that measured well should sound the same. Ignoring the fact (yes fact) that amplifiers with wonderful measurements can sound like Schiit. Plus, some amplifiers that didn't measure as well were sonically superior (mostly tube stuff). Graphs/measurements do play a significant role in analyzing the "sound quality" of components, along with subjective listening, both are key in critical listening. Some love the ODAC, O2, Sabre Chips, etc., bully for them, others find them shrill and unmusical, or the Modi, NAD M51, a gem to one is not desirable to another.

Just recently I had my portable iFi iDSD Nano plugged into my main system, on my 650's it sounded wonderful, on the 560's flat and dead, the Focus A Pads vs. Production, yes there are differences, was it worth the angst of Pad Gate, IMO probably not, to another yes.

 

[StanD]

And then there's expectation bias........and emotional responses.....

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Sonic Defender, you are a behavioral scientist as well, ^ see above for the anal, OCD, borderline antisocial disorder often seen in engineers, if it is unexplainable in their little world's they try to cross over into ours to explain why we can't possibly be hearing anything. Sad, in a way, that they are so trapped by their perceived realities that they can never experience the joys of the perceptive world .

 

[StanD]

Sonic Defender, you are a behavioral scientist as well, ^ see above for the anal, OCD, borderline antisocial disorder often seen in engineers, if it is unexplainable in their little world's they try to cross over into ours to explain why we can't possibly be hearing anything. Sad, in a way, that they are so trapped by their perceived realities that they can never experience the joys of the perceptive world .

I posed an aspect which is part of the experience that some people deny. But you sure have a rude keyboard, so don't try to infer that I or anyone else have antisocial behaviour. Nor should you stereotype a group of people.

 

[hifimanrookie]

And then there's expectation bias........and emotional responses.....

Well..i am proof that ur worst expectations can turn into wildy loving a product...as u maybe know how i got my 337....i was 1000000% contra tube amps...hated them deeply! Those vintage rubbish couldnt possible sound better then a Modern SS amp...and i deeply expected my mstage to kill it totally soundwise (and it did with some other more expensive tube amps driving my he500)

..oh man..how wrong i was!!! So how can anyone explain that???? If what some of u guys say that expectation and emotional process is THE most important factors for us to like a product or not, so how u explain my situation then...????

Pls do....but i think u cant my friends..not based on those two factors...the most important factor (in this particular situation) was that the 337 just sounded better to our ears....no matter how much i wanted it not to be!

Trust me...i switched a million times between the mstage and the 337.. Changed 8sets of tubes (just to find a way to dislike that amp!!).. But i just couldnt..my ears and of the other (who also had a hd800 and a lcd3, but no he500) just liked the 337 better...

it turned out that my initial xpected 1hr that i wanted to spend turned out to be that i only left his place after 6coffees and 1am in the morning!!!) but we agreed that the hd800 and lcd3 sounded worse on the 337 then the modded he500 (opengrill and modular 2.0 pads) i had. The violectric v200 he had did a better job with those...thats why he sold the 337 to me...lucky me...

 

[StanD]

Well..i am proof that ur worst expectations can turn into wildy loving a product...as u maybe know how i got my 337....i was 1000000% contra tube amps...hated them deeply! Those vintage rubbish couldnt possible sound better then a Modern SS amp...and i deeply expected my mstage to kill it totally soundwise (and it did with some other more expensive tube amps driving my he500)

..oh man..how wrong i was!!! So how can anyone explain that???? If what some of u guys say that expectation and emotional process is THE most important factors for us to like a product or not, so how u explain my situation then...????

Pls do....but i think u cant my friends..not based on those two factors...the most important factor (in this particular situation) was that the 337 just sounded better to our ears....no matter how much i wanted it not to be!

Trust me...i switched a million times between the mstage and the 337.. Changed 8sets of tubes (just to find a way to dislike that amp!!).. But i just couldnt..my ears and of the other (who also had a hd800 and a lcd3, but no he500) just liked the 337 better...

it turned out that my initial xpected 1hr that i wanted to spend turned out to be that i only left his place after 6coffees and 1am in the morning!!!) but we agreed that the hd800 and lcd3 sounded worse on the 337 then the modded he500 (opengrill and modular 2.0 pads) i had. The violectric v200 he had did a better job with those...thats why he sold the 337 to me...lucky me...

And now you love an SS Amp.

 

[hifimanrookie]

Sonic Defender, you are a behavioral scientist as well, ^ see above for the anal, OCD, borderline antisocial disorder often seen in engineers, if it is unexplainable in their little world's they try to cross over into ours to explain why we can't possibly be hearing anything. Sad, in a way, that they are so trapped by their perceived realities that they can never experience the joys of the perceptive world .

I have many engineers in my friends circle..some one of my best friends..but i also know that when they believe something and have measurements to back it up..they will never ever accept any subjective way of thinking...so i accept that..as they will never change..and thats okay..i think stan is one of those smart techies...but a secret..some of my techie freiends agree with me that my rig sounds above expectations good..lolz..but most still think that i am silly spending as much on my rig as i did...lolz but they respect my decision..oh well..they also think i am crazy in what i spend on my car....oh well...they like watching soccer..go to all the games (also international) of ajax..soend a fortune on the tickets to attend all the games..let alone what they spend on beer etc. In bars when the game is over...lolz..trust me...they spend maybe a multible a year of what i spend on my car AND rig...but they love it..and i love them..so everyone is happy...they gave up trying to convince me and i did the same..perfect balance..hehehe

Same thing here guys...we have two groups who will never agree.....so let us go ahead and talk about what we do agree about....well...does that exist?

 

[hifimanrookie]

And now you love an SS Amp.

Yep..but not based on numbers..or because its a SS amp...it was a risk i took i agree..but so worth it. It can be that my next amp will be a mix..with variable tube/ss sound..they just came up with an preamp on which u can change the way that preamp sounds..more tube or more ss sounding...it has both inside..u techies would love the technicalities behind it..lolz