[Ymer]

Quote:

Originally posted by cary There is significant disagreement over whether an outboard DAC makes a worthwhile improvement when using higher end sound cards. For example, at avsforum, a few "audiophiles" got together to compare the built-in DAC on the pricier sound cards against running digital to a high end DAC. They did not employ ABX testing, but they did reach something close to a consensus that with an RME Digi96/8 PAD or better, an outboard DAC would be redundant. Here's the thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=236215 Basically, when you consider that a used RME Digi96/8 PST can be had in the neighborhood of $200 these days, and an RME Digi96/8 PAD can be had for under $400 new, the answer to your question should be a no-brainer. All that said, there might still be advantages to running digital. Headphone listeners may be more sensitive to EMI than most critical listeners, so separating the PS might still make sense, though I must admit that I sincerely doubt whether it makes enough of a difference with sound cards of this quality to justify the added expense. On the other hand, dsavitsk's CAL Sigma Tube DAC does sound appealing to me, but I've recently developed something of a tube fetish. My own feeling is that there may finally be enough of us headfiers running card->headphone amp set ups to run a comparison against card->DAC->headphone amp, and against cdp->headphone amp. My own finding is that my Digi96/8 PST->Melos->MS2/HD590 system beats the crap out of my admittedly relative low end CDP, but I did forgo upgrading my standalone CDP in lieu of a relatively significant cable investment. (I bought a new PC for my regular stereo amp, and I got Jim Hess to build a custom Magwire Ultra TRS->RCA cable, and a pair of regular RCAs, for me.) For me it made sense as I'm looking to do more recording/monitoring work. But it would certainly be interesting to find out which card/amp/can systems have the most synergy. Who knows, maybe at one of the upcoming meets, there might actually be P.C.'s! (Of course, there might be an outcry that we need a separate room to accomodate the additional noise, electrical and otherwise, but that's another story.)

Actually, I cancelled that Terratec order to look properly into the RME line first. If it's THAT superior, no point in buying a Terratec now.
You mentioned a "PST" and "PAD", that's like greek to me. Translation please =)
What do I need, a "PST" or a "PAD", and where do you find it in the neighbourhood of $200?

Thanks again.

 

[cary]

The PST is the older version of the PAD. The principal difference between the two cards is that the PST's analog out uses a TRS stereo (1/4") while the PAD uses a breakout cable with a pair of regular RCA's and a pair of balanced XLR's. They use the same D/A and A/D converters, and both are bit perfect for digital transfers.

Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find Digi96/8 PST's new, and would probably call for a store by store inquiry. The real reason why they're so much cheaper than the PAD is that the Euro has gone up so much relative to the dollar since the PAD came out, driving the prices up. Digi96/8 PAD's can still be had in Europe for the $200-$250 price range. Finding them in the states for that price would depend on being able to find a reseller who had them in stock before the currency rose.

RME cards come up pretty often on ebay, but you do need to check regularly. Usually almost nobody bids on them. That's how I ended up picking up my Digi96/8 PST for $200. Right now, there's a 9652 with an expansion board going for $300, which should get bid up a bit because they're worth close to $700 new (and the expansion board's worth around $200 new). The linky: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=41784

The 9652 is an awesome card, with a slightly better DAC than Digi96/8 PST and PAD, though not enough to justify the expense at retail prices. If that card stays at that price, it would be an incredible steal, especially with the expansion board. It uses stereo TRs 1/4" plugs like the PST, which are pretty standard in professional musician gear.

You could also check the RME newsgroup and post a WTB. Linky: http://www.rme-audio.com/english/info/newsgrp.htm

I should also say that the Terratec really is a good card that would make most people really happy. Like I told a fellow headfier who inquired elsewhere about the RME cards, they are better (more detail, slightly better extension and bass control), but once you get into cards of Terratec or M-Audio's caliber, you've already reached into the realm of diminishing returns, at least at current U.S. retail prices. NOS or used is another story altogether, however.

.02

 

[Ymer]

cary, check your PM please

thanks

 

[fewtch]

Thanks cary... that was an impressive take on high-end sound cards.

What I really like about PC based audio is that it's still unpopular and mostly undiscovered among audiophiles (musicians are a different story of course). That helps keep prices low in comparison to what you get, so the longer high-end soundcards remain disdained by audiophiles the better!

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch What I really like about PC based audio is that it's still unpopular and mostly undiscovered among audiophiles (musicians are a different story of course). That helps keep prices low in comparison to what you get, so the longer high-end soundcards remain disdained by audiophiles the better!

Heh, that's an interesting viewpoint

I too am putting my faith in the soundcard thing after I dicovered my $50 santa cruz sounds slightly better than my receiver. I've got a Digi96/8 PAD on the way from Germany, hope I can tell the difference over the TBSC on my Gilmore V2 + HD600's.

 

[lan]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch What I really like about PC based audio is that it's still unpopular and mostly undiscovered among audiophiles

What I don't like about it is nobody is willing to shell out the $$$ into unknown territory especially when it historically had bad quality.

There are some problem areas like a PC's power supply is rather noisy. Surely this puts a cap on performance but I dont' know what level that's at. Ideally there would be comparisions with various power supplies, coax vs. optical output, power cords, and some other tweaks. I've been fooling around with a bunch of stuff lately.

My $3.99 NEC Multispin external CDROM (with 12ft radio shack video cable) beats my Audiophile 24/96's digital output. That's just how bad it is inside the computer. I guess you don't really know until you've tried. I would like to try RME or Lynx2 but I don't really know if they'll make a sizeable difference. In the mean time, I've added an EMI filter and made a quad star shielded power cable which improved sound a bit.

Well let us know how the RME is when it comes. It should easily beat the TBSC.

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally posted by lan There are some problem areas like a PC's power supply is rather noisy. Surely this puts a cap on performance but I dont' know what level that's at. Ideally there would be comparisions with various power supplies, coax vs. optical output, power cords, and some other tweaks. I've been fooling around with a bunch of stuff lately.

That's true, I've been wondering how much the internals of a computer affect/bottleneck things. Luckily I've got a fairly decent box I build myself that uses (I hope) decent quality components - a nice full tower Coolermaster case, an Antec TruePower 380W power supply, Asus P4B533 motherboard with an Intel chipset. Everything keeps pretty cool and the noise from fans is kept to a minimum, so hopefully it'll be sufficient to reveal the capabilities of the RME card. It's not like I'm throwing this in some e-machines box

I've also been toying with the idea of getting an Art DIO for comparison, but I'm not sure if it would be worth getting without the power supply upgrade.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by lan My $3.99 NEC Multispin external CDROM (with 12ft radio shack video cable) beats my Audiophile 24/96's digital output. That's just how bad it is inside the computer.

I'm surprised... my Audiophile 24/96 has about a -102dB noise floor, whereas CD audio has -96dB (in other words, the card is essentially as quiet as digital silence).

One thing I do notice (that I'm convinced is coming from the card and not my OBH-11 amp) is a smooth, glassy background to music that sounds too obviously "digital." I usually don't notice unless I'm listening for it tho... it does add a sort of 'hardness' to music, but it isn't dramatic. I still consider my turntable the primary "good sound" source anyway, so no big frig.

 

[lan]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch I'm surprised... my Audiophile 24/96 has about a -102dB noise floor, whereas CD audio has -96dB (in other words, the card is essentially as quiet as digital silence).

I'm talking about the digital out. It's jitter is probably greater on the AP 24/96 than on the NEC CDROM.

Quote:

Originally posted by mulveling I've also been toying with the idea of getting an Art DIO for comparison, but I'm not sure if it would be worth getting without the power supply upgrade.

I'm finding that the quality of power makes quite a difference. Of course everybody's power situation is different so there are different amounts of benefits from conditioners, supplies, cords, etc. The Atari power supply is pretty cheap but then you'll have to get a nice digital cable.

 

[Ymer]

What's the deal with the NEC CDRom? What's so good about it and why so much talk?
Sorry, I'm a newcomer to the forums and everywhere I look there is someone talking about that damned thing x_x

 

[Guild]

Check out this from a PS roundup.

http://anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1841&p=25

Anandtech basically figured that the amount of interference each PS creates can be gauged by the number of flipped transistors in a memory module (i.e. memory error) in a given time frame.

I'm felling pretty good owning the Enermax model and using my soundcard as a source.

BTW, I've noticed that if any analog cables from cdroms are attached to my soundcard, then horrific amounts of noise come through. It doesn't matter if the cables are being used or not, just that they are connected.