[Ymer]

Hello,

I'm trying to build a good quality rig for music listening (lossy, lossless AND CD audio) out of a computer, which is my only possible source.
I currently own a Creek OBH-11 amp, a pair of Sennheiser HD580 and a pair of Philips HP 610 Headphones.
The next step is obviously a better source, since my current source (output of a C-Media on a Soyo mobo) is awful. I've been looking into the Terratec EWX 24/96 and M-Audio Audiophile, and while the Terratec strikes me as a better card for some reason, it seems that the Audiophile is a LOT more popular in these forums, and I figured maybe that's due to avaibility in the North American market.
To sum it up: Which soundcard should I buy AND is there any extra equipment for a substantial performance enhacement I could buy to use alongside what I have now?

Thanks in advance!

 

[fewtch]

I read a website once where someone did a bunch of soundcard tests, and the Audiophile 24/96 tested significantly better than the EWX 2496 and the guy recommend the Audiophile. Unfortunately I didn't save the link.

Edit -- ahah, found it:

http://www.io.com/~kazushi/audiocard/

P.S. Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about what happens to your wallet after being around here awhile.

If that's a non-SE OBH-11 (with the Creek OBH-1), see this thread of mine -- you might find it interesting:

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=43771

 

[Ymer]

Thanks! I feel welcome already

Either way, I also found this http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0.../soundcard.asp and I e-mailed the guy who wrote that article you posted (yes, I did that -_-) and he told me that he couldn't tell the card aparts as far as audio output is concerned on a blind test, so I figure it's a subjective difference and either card is a fine buy... I hope.

Would a DAC between the soundcard and amp make a night and day difference? And if so, is there any recommended DAC?

Thanks.

 

[dsavitsk]

I just started using Xitel card (~$80 new) with a CAL Sigma tube DAC w/ a fancy NOS tube (~$250 used) and I am speechless. Really, I don't know what I did to deserve this out of my computer. It sounds genuinly good, as in, I have recently auditioned cd players over $1000 that don't sound this good. It is the crunchy-est fattest guitar sound, in fact, guitars sound like guitars.

Rounding out the system is a Melos and some ety 4Ps, and some audioquest python ICs, but the source is cheap.

-d

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ymer Thanks! I feel welcome already Either way, I also found this http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0.../soundcard.asp and I e-mailed the guy who wrote that article you posted (yes, I did that -_-) and he told me that he couldn't tell the card aparts as far as audio output is concerned on a blind test, so I figure it's a subjective difference and either card is a fine buy... I hope. Would a DAC between the soundcard and amp make a night and day difference? And if so, is there any recommended DAC? Thanks.

Most people would say yes -- I'd say that there may or may not be, particularly depending on upstream equipment (amp and headphones). Try giving a listen to the soundcard's built in DAC, and if it satisfies then why spend more money? Your ears should be the judge, not your wallet or the opinions of the audiophile masses. Today's soundcards are much quieter and better than those of only a few years ago.

As far as DACs go, the ART DI/O has been highly recommended, and costs only $100-$150. If you ever give an external DAC any serious consideration, you may want to consider the ART DI/O in particular.

 

[soupy]

if you don't want to spend too much on the DAC right now, you could always go with a ART DIO (about $130) for now and when you have the funds go with a boldercables.com mod that supposedly makes it sound as good as DACs up in the 4 digit price range. Either way, a DAC would help alot on a PC based source.

 

[tortie]

Try this site:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rongonz/.../soundcard.html

 

[Ymer]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch Most people would say yes -- I'd say that there may or may not be, particularly depending on upstream equipment (amp and headphones). Try giving a listen to the soundcard's built in DAC, and if it satisfies then why spend more money? Your ears should be the judge, not your wallet or the opinions of the audiophile masses. Today's soundcards are much quieter and better than those of only a few years ago. As far as DACs go, the ART DI/O has been highly recommended, and costs only $100-$150. If you ever give an external DAC any serious consideration, you may want to consider the ART DI/O in particular.

But is a DAC an important improvement? A simple ART DIO for example, will make a huge impact in overall sound quality? Having no other equipment to compare with proves to be a problem as it is quite impossible to judge the soundcard's output, ignorance might prove to be an unwanted blesssing in this case. >:|

Tortie: Seems like the article is a goner ;_;

Thanks

 

[cary]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ymer But is a DAC an important improvement? A simple ART DIO for example, will make a huge impact in overall sound quality? Having no other equipment to compare with proves to be a problem as it is quite impossible to judge the soundcard's output, ignorance might prove to be an unwanted blesssing in this case. >:| Tortie: Seems like the article is a goner ;_; Thanks

There is significant disagreement over whether an outboard DAC makes a worthwhile improvement when using higher end sound cards. For example, at avsforum, a few "audiophiles" got together to compare the built-in DAC on the pricier sound cards against running digital to a high end DAC. They did not employ ABX testing, but they did reach something close to a consensus that with an RME Digi96/8 PAD or better, an outboard DAC would be redundant. Here's the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=236215

Basically, when you consider that a used RME Digi96/8 PST can be had in the neighborhood of $200 these days, and an RME Digi96/8 PAD can be had for under $400 new, the answer to your question should be a no-brainer.

All that said, there might still be advantages to running digital. Headphone listeners may be more sensitive to EMI than most critical listeners, so separating the PS might still make sense, though I must admit that I sincerely doubt whether it makes enough of a difference with sound cards of this quality to justify the added expense. On the other hand, dsavitsk's CAL Sigma Tube DAC does sound appealing to me, but I've recently developed something of a tube fetish.

My own feeling is that there may finally be enough of us headfiers running card->headphone amp set ups to run a comparison against card->DAC->headphone amp, and against cdp->headphone amp. My own finding is that my Digi96/8 PST->Melos->MS2/HD590 system beats the crap out of my admittedly relative low end CDP, but I did forgo upgrading my standalone CDP in lieu of a relatively significant cable investment. (I bought a new PC for my regular stereo amp, and I got Jim Hess to build a custom Magwire Ultra TRS->RCA cable, and a pair of regular RCAs, for me.) For me it made sense as I'm looking to do more recording/monitoring work. But it would certainly be interesting to find out which card/amp/can systems have the most synergy. Who knows, maybe at one of the upcoming meets, there might actually be P.C.'s! (Of course, there might be an outcry that we need a separate room to accomodate the additional noise, electrical and otherwise, but that's another story.)

 

[Ymer]

Hmmmm, all of these answers generated 2 new questions:

1 - What's up with the tube fetish? It seems to be a common thing these days, two tube fans answered to this post alone! Why are tubes so good?

2 - I don't live in the US, getting a Terratec is easier. Now I wonder if Terratec EWX 24/96 + DAC will equal or maybe surpass the RME Digi96/8.

3 - Are the Terratec DACs really bad?

Thanks

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ymer 3 - Are the Terratec DACs really bad?

No -- likely it's at least as good as DACs found in better "mid-fi" CD players. Generally the debate centers around the amount of EMI inside a computer, and how that can affect both jitter and noise injection into the analog portions of the circuitry.

I don't have any basis for comparison either, but after testing my card using a program called Rightmark Audio Analyzer (RMAA) and also Cool Edit Pro's statistical functions, I'm satisfied that EMI noise is a very minor issue with my Audiophile 24/96, and not enough to justify an external DAC at the moment (plus the 24/96 just sounds pretty good to me). YMMV...

 

[dsavitsk]

Quote:

What's up with the tube fetish? It seems to be a common thing these days, two tube fans answered to this post alone! Why are tubes so good?

I think the why is that tubes are designed to amplify while integrated circuits are not. As such, solid state is great for processing, but tubes are, isooo*, better for sound reproduction.

For me, I particularly notice the tube/solid state difference when listening to recorded guitars. For guitar players (of which I am one -- maybe I should list a 1974 Les Paul Custom in my gear pile) the amp is at least half of the instrument. Guitar players use tube amps. If the tube sound could come through a solid state amp then guitar players would certainly make the switch as guitar amps need to be retubed yearly, not to mention that tubes get cracked moving amps around, and this can get really expensive. But they don't (that is, they don't switch to solid state), and I am yet to hear a solid state amp that can reproduce what a live tube sounds like.

I can't really speak to music which is not amplified live other than to say tube audio equipment, to my ear, has a sense of presence that solid state can't do. It is more that simply being warm, it is more like being embracing. This makes it particularly pleasant to listen to human vocals through tubes. (I'll also be the first to admit that there is nothing natural about the "tube" sound, more like supernatural, but that is what I like from my stereo. Unike many audiofickles, I don't want to reproduce the real world in my home, the real world sucks.)

-d

* in some of our opinions

 

[Ymer]

I see, so overall conclusion for this thread:

1 - Tubes are not for people who don't want to be bothered with mainteinance.
2 - An external DAC is *NOT* a must if a semi-decent soundcard and amp are used.
3 - There isn't anything missing in the setup soundcard --> headphone amp ---> headphones.

Thanks to all!

 

[pbirkett]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ymer 3 - Are the Terratec DACs really bad?

Not at all. My EWX24/96 really does sound outstanding. As good as any mid priced CD player I've heard.

Listen to one, and believe, and feel the force

Edit: Dont just take my word for it, read this review...
http://www.computeraudio.co.uk/caw/c...ecewx2496.html

 

[Ymer]

Actually pbirkett, I have just ordered me a Terratec EWX 24/96

Thanks for the feedback!