[Thomas119966]

Let me start off by saying im pretty new to everything regarding dac/amps for headphones, i found it quite confusing to search around for information on it all so i figured it would be better to ask my questions here and maybe someone would be able to give me advice on my current situation.
 
My current setup is a creative X7 which im fairly happy with apart from Creatives drivers being a bit nuts at times, and along with that ive just gotten myself a pair of HE-400i headphones which im really happy with, they are upgraded from a pair of Beyerdynamic DT700Pro 80 Ohms. Now here is where my issues start, the DT770 played great with my X7, could get reasonable levels of volume out of it, but nothing that woudl get even close to being really loud for my ears, now with the HE-400i its like it has taken another step down, they are a bit more quiet than the DT770 which is a bummer for me since i quite like being able to turn the volume up loud whenever i feel like it.
 
So my question is... Could the X7 be holding my HE-400i back? or is there anything else that could be a factor to why these headphones really cant play very loud at all?
Im very curious to hear what you guys around here think, if its just how it is or whatever else.
 
Now if it was to be the X7 thats an issue id like to figure out what DAC/AMP that would drive the HE-400i better. Ive looked at a few things but its like a jungle out there for me, i have no idea what would work nicely, i dont mind spending a bit on it since i do use my headphones quite a lot each day.
 
Also if i was to get a DAC/AMP combo of some sort, how does that work with soundcards? is it recommended to use a default onboard soundcard and run it to the DAC/AMP, or would there be any reason to run a sound card and then push that through the DAC/AMP?
 
Sorry for the long ish post, i hope someone can help me understand all this a bit better
 
Thanks in advance!

 

[Giupy]

Hey, Thomas!

If you're having trouble getting to reasonable listening levels, it's a problem with the amplification, not the DAC. The X7 has a built in amp that should do fine.

I've used the HE-400 with the Creative Sound Blaster Zx and it was fine. I could hear everything fine with my volume turned to 3-4/10.

The X7 should be fine with headphones with an impedance of up to 600 Ohm, so it shouldn't really be a problem.

Typically, planars such as the HE-400i are more difficult to driver than dynamic driver headphones, but the 400i only has 35 Ohm output impedance, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Check if you have all the enhancements disabled in windows for the X7, that may mess around with volume levels a bit.

Regarding a DAC and amp combo that works with sound cards... Well, you sound card has a DAC and amp inside of it. That's what it is, basically. If you want to upgrade, just get a new amp and use the DAC of your X7. A stronger amp that would output more power at the same impedance level should do the trick.

Popular budget solutions are the Schiit Magni, the O2, pretty much any SMSL amp, the Fiio E10K and the list can go on.

How do you have it connected, though? Are you using USB, optical or RCA? Also, have you checked ALL the volume controls?

By the way, have you tried moving the 4/8 Ohm switch on the back? I don't know if it's only for speakers or if it affects headphones too, though.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas119966 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Let me start off by saying im pretty new to everything regarding dac/amps for headphones, i found it quite confusing to search around for information on it all so i figured it would be better to ask my questions here and maybe someone would be able to give me advice on my current situation.

 

My current setup is a creative X7 which im fairly happy with apart from Creatives drivers being a bit nuts at times, and along with that ive just gotten myself a pair of HE-400i headphones which im really happy with, they are upgraded from a pair of Beyerdynamic DT700Pro 80 Ohms. Now here is where my issues start, the DT770 played great with my X7, could get reasonable levels of volume out of it, but nothing that woudl get even close to being really loud for my ears, now with the HE-400i its like it has taken another step down, they are a bit more quiet than the DT770 which is a bummer for me since i quite like being able to turn the volume up loud whenever i feel like it.

 

So my question is... Could the X7 be holding my HE-400i back? or is there anything else that could be a factor to why these headphones really cant play very loud at all?

Im very curious to hear what you guys around here think, if its just how it is or whatever else.

 

That's primarily because the HE400i's sensitivity and efficiency are considerably lower than the DT770's. Even if you're at or closer to the impedance where the X7 makes the most power (which is likely at 32ohms; barring OTL tube amps which do so at 300ohms, this is usually true for most amps), the sensitivity and efficiency deficiency is enough that the added power can't overcome how much more dB's the DT770 can get out of what you give it. Think of it this way, very roughly it's like if you had a diesel engine that makes peak torque at 2250rpm pulling a 1.5tonne truck (HE400i) vs putting that same engine into a chassis like a Lotus Seven (DT770).

 

On top of that, it's a closed headphone, so you're also hearing a lot less of the ambient noise. Remember that a quiet room with no distinct noise source isn't that quiet - in some cases the indistinct noise still has a total noise floor of 30dB. That's about the same level as some PC fans blowing through a radiator at full tilt (well AIOs are louder with their static pressure fans blowing through high density rads).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas119966 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Now if it was to be the X7 thats an issue id like to figure out what DAC/AMP that would drive the HE-400i better. Ive looked at a few things but its like a jungle out there for me, i have no idea what would work nicely, i dont mind spending a bit on it since i do use my headphones quite a lot each day.

 

Also if i was to get a DAC/AMP combo of some sort, how does that work with soundcards? is it recommended to use a default onboard soundcard and run it to the DAC/AMP, or would there be any reason to run a sound card and then push that through the DAC/AMP?

 

It might not be necessary to get a DAC-HPamp. Check the manual or ask Creative if the volume control affects the output level on the line output on the rear of the X7. if it doesn't, that means you get a fixed level output likely pegged at around 2volts, so just hook up an amplifier there.

 

That said, since you've been having issues with the Creative drivers, it might be a good idea to just sell the X7 and get a Strix internal soundcard with SPDIF, assuming you have a spare expansion slot on the motherboard. Then run the SPDIF signal from it to the DAC-HPamp. As long as you're using SPDIF you'll use the DSP chip on the card, thus processed signals will go through (unlike USB which bypasses that chip). Basically you still get virtual surround and EQ effects.

 

For the HE400i, get something like the AudioGD NFB-11 at least. If you're really willing to spend more, get something like the Schiit Bifrost and the Lyr2 or Jotunheim. Those amps will drive pretty much anything, and the Bifrost has an upgradable digital input board, just in case at some point you want to try out a receiver chip that takes different formats or sample rates.

 

[Thomas119966]

  Hey, Thomas!

If you're having trouble getting to reasonable listening levels, it's a problem with the amplification, not the DAC. The X7 has a built in amp that should do fine.

I've used the HE-400 with the Creative Sound Blaster Zx and it was fine. I could hear everything fine with my volume turned to 3-4/10.

The X7 should be fine with headphones with an impedance of up to 600 Ohm, so it shouldn't really be a problem.

Typically, planars such as the HE-400i are more difficult to driver than dynamic driver headphones, but the 400i only has 35 Ohm output impedance, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Check if you have all the enhancements disabled in windows for the X7, that may mess around with volume levels a bit.

Regarding a DAC and amp combo that works with sound cards... Well, you sound card has a DAC and amp inside of it. That's what it is, basically. If you want to upgrade, just get a new amp and use the DAC of your X7. A stronger amp that would output more power at the same impedance level should do the trick.

Popular budget solutions are the Schiit Magni, the O2, pretty much any SMSL amp, the Fiio E10K and the list can go on.

How do you have it connected, though? Are you using USB, optical or RCA? Also, have you checked ALL the volume controls?

By the way, have you tried moving the 4/8 Ohm switch on the back? I don't know if it's only for speakers or if it affects headphones too, though.

The ohm switch is only for the speaker output im afraid, and ive went through all the windows options i could find with no luck so far, it does seem like it must be related to the X7
 
EDIT:The X7 connects through USB to the pc and then the headphones are plugged in with a standard minijack connector

 

[Thomas119966]

 

 

That's primarily because the HE400i's sensitivity and efficiency are considerably lower than the DT770's. Even if you're at or closer to the impedance where the X7 makes the most power (which is likely at 32ohms; barring OTL tube amps which do so at 300ohms, this is usually true for most amps), the sensitivity and efficiency deficiency is enough that the added power can't overcome how much more dB's the DT770 can get out of what you give it. Think of it this way, very roughly it's like if you had a diesel engine that makes peak torque at 2250rpm pulling a 1.5tonne truck (HE400i) vs putting that same engine into a chassis like a Lotus Seven (DT770).

 

On top of that, it's a closed headphone, so you're also hearing a lot less of the ambient noise. Remember that a quiet room with no distinct noise source isn't that quiet - in some cases the indistinct noise still has a total noise floor of 30dB. That's about the same level as some PC fans blowing through a radiator at full tilt (well AIOs are louder with their static pressure fans blowing through high density rads).

 

 

 

It might not be necessary to get a DAC-HPamp. Check the manual or ask Creative if the volume control affects the output level on the line output on the rear of the X7. if it doesn't, that means you get a fixed level output likely pegged at around 2volts, so just hook up an amplifier there.

 

That said, since you've been having issues with the Creative drivers, it might be a good idea to just sell the X7 and get a Strix internal soundcard with SPDIF, assuming you have a spare expansion slot on the motherboard. Then run the SPDIF signal from it to the DAC-HPamp. As long as you're using SPDIF you'll use the DSP chip on the card, thus processed signals will go through (unlike USB which bypasses that chip). Basically you still get virtual surround and EQ effects.

 

For the HE400i, get something like the AudioGD NFB-11 at least. If you're really willing to spend more, get something like the Schiit Bifrost and the Lyr2 or Jotunheim. Those amps will drive pretty much anything, and the Bifrost has an upgradable digital input board, just in case at some point you want to try out a receiver chip that takes different formats or sample rates.

Thank you for clearing up alot of what i didnt understand! 
 
And from what you said, i think that id be most happy in the end if i get rid of the X7 and replace it with an amp since my motherboard already has a pretty decent soundcard on it already(https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS-VIII-HERO/) Atleast from what i can read its pretty decent.
 
The Schiit options you refered to seem a little price heavy for my budget, im looking to spend somewhere between 400-600$ in total for an amp, is there some good alternatives that wont have any issues driving my pair of headphones?

 

[Thomas119966]

A little update, i tried hooking the X7 up to my speaker amp, a very old ONYKO stereo amp, through that the headphones sound so much better, the sound has much more of a kick to it, now the problem would be solved if i just used that setup each time... but the amp is quite massive and it eats tons of power for breakfast, and its probably way overkill for headphones anyway. But if nothing else ive atleast got proof that the headphones needs a better amp to really push their full potential. Now the question is which...

 

[Giupy]

  The ohm switch is only for the speaker output im afraid, and ive went through all the windows options i could find with no luck so far, it does seem like it must be related to the X7
 
EDIT:The X7 connects through USB to the pc and then the headphones are plugged in with a standard minijack connector

I was actually hinting towards the big volume knob on the X7 itself

 

[Thomas119966]

 
I was actually hinting towards the big volume knob on the X7 itself

That just controls the volume through windows, it has the same effect as if i went to the volume mixer in windows and adjuest with that

 

[Thomas119966]

 

 

That's primarily because the HE400i's sensitivity and efficiency are considerably lower than the DT770's. Even if you're at or closer to the impedance where the X7 makes the most power (which is likely at 32ohms; barring OTL tube amps which do so at 300ohms, this is usually true for most amps), the sensitivity and efficiency deficiency is enough that the added power can't overcome how much more dB's the DT770 can get out of what you give it. Think of it this way, very roughly it's like if you had a diesel engine that makes peak torque at 2250rpm pulling a 1.5tonne truck (HE400i) vs putting that same engine into a chassis like a Lotus Seven (DT770).

 

On top of that, it's a closed headphone, so you're also hearing a lot less of the ambient noise. Remember that a quiet room with no distinct noise source isn't that quiet - in some cases the indistinct noise still has a total noise floor of 30dB. That's about the same level as some PC fans blowing through a radiator at full tilt (well AIOs are louder with their static pressure fans blowing through high density rads).

 

 

 

It might not be necessary to get a DAC-HPamp. Check the manual or ask Creative if the volume control affects the output level on the line output on the rear of the X7. if it doesn't, that means you get a fixed level output likely pegged at around 2volts, so just hook up an amplifier there.

 

That said, since you've been having issues with the Creative drivers, it might be a good idea to just sell the X7 and get a Strix internal soundcard with SPDIF, assuming you have a spare expansion slot on the motherboard. Then run the SPDIF signal from it to the DAC-HPamp. As long as you're using SPDIF you'll use the DSP chip on the card, thus processed signals will go through (unlike USB which bypasses that chip). Basically you still get virtual surround and EQ effects.

 

For the HE400i, get something like the AudioGD NFB-11 at least. If you're really willing to spend more, get something like the Schiit Bifrost and the Lyr2 or Jotunheim. Those amps will drive pretty much anything, and the Bifrost has an upgradable digital input board, just in case at some point you want to try out a receiver chip that takes different formats or sample rates.

 
 
Thanks for clearing up a lot of information
 
Ive tried my headhpones through my speaker amp and that works really well, even with the X7 in between the amp and the pc, gives me a bit more control with the decent EQ that it has, problem is that its big, draws alot of power and is for my speakers, which are quite large floor standing speakers, so its far from ideal to use that.
 
So i think ill want to do as you suggested, sell the X7 and get a internal sound card for my pc that gives me some extra stuff to play with instead of the plain sound that my pc otherwise gives me. Ontop of that i want a good amp that can drive the HE-400i without issues, and have the option to play them really loud if i want, im looking to spend 400-600$ on the amp itself, so it would be very much appreciated if there were any slightly cheaper alternatives to getting the two Schiit devices.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas119966 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

And from what you said, i think that id be most happy in the end if i get rid of the X7 and replace it with an amp since my motherboard already has a pretty decent soundcard on it already(https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS-VIII-HERO/) Atleast from what i can read its pretty decent.

 

Just check if it actually has all the DSP features you need. I looked at the product page and it says it has 7.1 simulation on stereo headphones. Try uninstalling the Creative drivers and running your headphones from the motherboard, if at least to check if you like the surround simulation on this.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas119966 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

The Schiit options you refered to seem a little price heavy for my budget, im looking to spend somewhere between 400-600$ in total for an amp, is there some good alternatives that wont have any issues driving my pair of headphones?

 

Well I took "don't mind spending a bit" to mean around $800. Also if you mean total then shipping needs to be taken into account along with taxes, so we'd have to know where you are or we'd assume you're probably in the US or Canada. Europe has very different prices for example, ditto Australia. You might use up your budget getting lower end gear unless you just get a good one from China, but warranty dealings can be a little slower because they need to go through interpreters unless you can speak Mandarin.

 

If you're in the US, you can get the Magni2Uber and Modi2Uber for $300. No import taxes so you can look into the AudioGD NFB-11.  If you're in Europe, your best budget bet would be the Meier Jazz at 350Euros, but that's an amp only (can still work with your motherboard though); if you want a DAC, you either get a different SPDIF input DAC which can get expensive as the cheapest decent one is the Schiit Modi2Uber, and shipping would be $70, so it's better if you just save up for a Violectric with the optional SPDIF DAC module.

 

[Thomas119966]

 

 

Just check if it actually has all the DSP features you need. I looked at the product page and it says it has 7.1 simulation on stereo headphones. Try uninstalling the Creative drivers and running your headphones from the motherboard, if at least to check if you like the surround simulation on this.

 

 

 

 

Well I took "don't mind spending a bit" to mean around $800. Also if you mean total then shipping needs to be taken into account along with taxes, so we'd have to know where you are or we'd assume you're probably in the US or Canada. Europe has very different prices for example, ditto Australia. You might use up your budget getting lower end gear unless you just get a good one from China, but warranty dealings can be a little slower because they need to go through interpreters unless you can speak Mandarin.

 

If you're in the US, you can get the Magni2Uber and Modi2Uber for $300. No import taxes so you can look into the AudioGD NFB-11.  If you're in Europe, your best budget bet would be the Meier Jazz at 350Euros, but that's an amp only (can still work with your motherboard though); if you want a DAC, you either get a different SPDIF input DAC which can get expensive as the cheapest decent one is the Schiit Modi2Uber, and shipping would be $70, so it's better if you just save up for a Violectric with the optional SPDIF DAC module.

 
Im in Denmark so i would need to pay import tax for anything from Schiit i think. In those 400-600$ i dont count shipping, but of course would be nice to get all i need from one place with decent shipping costs.
 
Now from ive gathered so far it doesnt seem like a DAC is extremely important in my case, unless im missing some big selling point of using one. So lets assume i dont need one for the moment, would i be fine getting a decent sound card and then a good amp and then put that on the end of the sound card? and then plug my headphones into there.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Im in Denmark so i would need to pay import tax for anything from Schiit i think. In those 400-600$ i dont count shipping, but of course would be nice to get all i need from one place with decent shipping costs.
 
Now from ive gathered so far it doesnt seem like a DAC is extremely important in my case, unless im missing some big selling point of using one. So lets assume i dont need one for the moment, would i be fine getting a decent sound card and then a good amp and then put that on the end of the sound card? and then plug my headphones into there.

 
For the most part the good part about getting a DAC is that you'll get a fixed level signal at around 2volts with low noise. If your motherboard has that then the only real use for a DAC is to really just shorten the analogue signal path to really, really avoid noise, so might as well just try it first.
 
You can try the Meier Jazz for now, but if you really want an amp that will drive pretty much anything but electrostats, there's the Lyr2 and Jotunheim. The bonus with the Schiits though is that if you're OC you can order the Bifrost and stack 'em. The Jazz by contrast has no DAC in the same chassis type from the same company. Although of course you can just save up and get the Violectric V100+SPDIF DAC for €800.00. 
 
Or if you're wiling to try something from China, there's the AudioGD NFB-11 for under $400.

 

[Giupy]

  That just controls the volume through windows, it has the same effect as if i went to the volume mixer in windows and adjuest with that

That is an amazingly stupid design :/

I've seen that before, but it still boggles the mind...

 

[Giupy]

There's also a Schiit vendor in the UK, respectively electromod, if that helps. It's still more expensive than in the US, but definitely cheaper than ordering from there and covering shipping and import taxes.

 

[Thomas119966]

  There's also a Schiit vendor in the UK, respectively electromod, if that helps. It's still more expensive than in the US, but definitely cheaper than ordering from there and covering shipping and import taxes.

 

   
For the most part the good part about getting a DAC is that you'll get a fixed level signal at around 2volts with low noise. If your motherboard has that then the only real use for a DAC is to really just shorten the analogue signal path to really, really avoid noise, so might as well just try it first.
 
You can try the Meier Jazz for now, but if you really want an amp that will drive pretty much anything but electrostats, there's the Lyr2 and Jotunheim. The bonus with the Schiits though is that if you're OC you can order the Bifrost and stack 'em. The Jazz by contrast has no DAC in the same chassis type from the same company. Although of course you can just save up and get the Violectric V100+SPDIF DAC for €800.00. 
 
Or if you're wiling to try something from China, there's the AudioGD NFB-11 for under $400.

 
So lets say i get two of the Schiit ones, DAC and amp, id completly bypass getting any sort of sound card apart from the onboard stuff, which i guess works if it runs through SPDIF, which as far as ive understood just sends through the pure signal with nothing fancy added onto it, correct?
 
If thats true, then how do people get around adjusting something like an EQ with their expensive amp and DAC? I find that i often need to tweak the bass and treble to get it how i want it with every headphone ive tried.