help me position my speakers

[hugz]

Hello all

I need a little assistance positioning my speakers, if anyone can help.

My aim is to make them as transparent as possible. When i close my eyes I want them to disappear.

The speakers are "Dallas II" rear loaded horns. They are approximately 32cm wide (on my drawing it's 28cm- a mistake) 45cm long and 122cm (4 foot) tall

The room is as shown in the image.

It's not ideal, but it's what i'm working with at the moment.

The 18 foot wall is all glass

Currently they're setup as this

The speakers are toed in so agressively that their axises (or whatever the plural of "axis" is) cross over before the listener

This positioning was not chosen for any particular reason - they are new speakers and i'm just toying around with them at the moment. Many people say its good to toe in horns so that they cross over before the listener, but i'm not convinced their current position is at all ideal

so please advise me on how to position them better

regards

hugz

 

[nelamvr6]

Well I've always heard that a good place to start is by using the rule of thirds.

Start with the speakers 1/3 of the way from the back wall, 1/3 of the way in from each side wall.

this is just a starting position, but you can work from there to fine tune position.

 

[Jasper994]

Try forming an equilateral triangle. In this configuration the axes should cross at the listening position. Also you should have at least a couple feet from any wall.

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I've always heard that a good place to start is by using the rule of thirds. Start with the speakers 1/3 of the way from the back wall, 1/3 of the way in from each side wall. this is just a starting position, but you can work from there to fine tune position.

1/3 from the back wall measured from the front of the speakers or the back of the speakers? I tried it measured from the back and they're now very far into the room so i'm guessing it should be measured from the front

Also same for side.. but i guess it should be measured from the middle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try forming an equilateral triangle. In this configuration the axes should cross at the listening position. Also you should have at least a couple feet from any wall.

Thanks, I'll try this also. Many people claim that fostex fe206e (my speaker driver) sound a little bright on axis, so if that's the case i'll move the seat back a foot or two

Also, just something for all repliers to keep in mind... these are horn speakers, which are said to be picky about positioning. i'm not sure how true that is though

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks, I'll try this also. Many people claim that fostex fe206e (my speaker driver) sound a little bright on axis, so if that's the case i'll move the seat back a foot or two Also, just something for all repliers to keep in mind... these are horn speakers, which are said to be picky about positioning. i'm not sure how true that is though

FWIW, you may also try having the axes cross a foot or two behind the listening position.

 

[Spektrograf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I need a little assistance positioning my speakers, if anyone can help.

If you're really serious, and have access to a reasonably powerful computer, you can run the CARA 2.1 Plus room acoustics and speaker positioning software.

Depending on the acoustic characteristics in your room, positioning alone may not achieve what you've stated as your objective, i.e. make your speakers "disappear". Most of the time, some $$$ spent on specific acoustic treatment to adjust the acoustics in your room will be more worthwhile.

 

[hugz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 /img/forum/go_quote.gif FWIW, you may also try having the axes cross a foot or two behind the listening position.

I'll try this also, thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spektrograf /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're really serious, and have access to a reasonably powerful computer, you can run the CARA 2.1 Plus room acoustics and speaker positioning software. Depending on the acoustic characteristics in your room, positioning alone may not achieve what you've stated as your objective, i.e. make your speakers "disappear". Most of the time, some $$$ spent on specific acoustic treatment to adjust the acoustics in your room will be more worthwhile.

My computer is a windows free zone. plus it's not powerful. plus i'm kinda cheap

I'm fairly sure that i will buy some acoustic damping material eventually, but at the moment the small amount of money that i have is dedicated to providing me with a new amp. My current one is DISTORTING. gaaahhh

Thanks for the advice!

In some previous positions that i've had them in (see signature photo..) i've had some problems with boom in the lower frequency which REALLY doesn't make the speakers disappear

edit: haha i just looked at my signature photo. go the old-sleeping-bag acoustic damping! my sister stole all my rugs....... You may also notice that my floor is made out of CONCRETE. my house has no concern for audio

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I've always heard that a good place to start is by using the rule of thirds. Start with the speakers 1/3 of the way from the back wall, 1/3 of the way in from each side wall. this is just a starting position, but you can work from there to fine tune position.

Actually, I've read that putting the speakers at different distances from the side walls maximises the soundstage effect!

I really can't remember where I read this, but it was in a Chinese hifi magazine or something. The explanation is complex, but anyhow nelamvr6's advice is pretty good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try forming an equilateral triangle. In this configuration the axes should cross at the listening position. Also you should have at least a couple feet from any wall.

Completely agree. However, the equilateral triangle rule is not absolutely rock solid. It is only something that may help you set up your system. I used Norah Jones to help me get the central imaging right. The voice should sound like it's bang in the middle and adjust the toe-in so that the image is the sharpest. Her voice must sound like it's coming from the middle and not from the speakers. Also, pick up a copy of Stereophile Editor's Choice Sampler & Test CD. There are some nice tracks that can help you get the imaging and balance right.

In your diagram, your speakers are toed-in a lot. I don't think that toe-in is absolutely necessary as long as your imaging is sharp. You restrict your soundstage with the amount of toe-in you're using. Also, you need to move the speakers away from the side-walls a bit. Depending on hardness of your sidewall, you may either be soaking away too much of the sound (hence restricted/confined soundstage) or reflecting too much sound too soon (hence, muddy imaging).

You say you have 18' of glass to the right. You're covering that up right? Damping is a must!! You must at least make sure your listening position is not prone to echoing. A simple test is to clap your hands and listen for an echo. If you can here one, then your room is poorly damped. I'm not saying you need to transform your room into a recording studio, because those acoustics are not optimal for listening to music. Add a rug in front of your speakers and stick some soft, round materials in the corners. Next, make sure everything glass and large in size in front of your speakers is more or less covered. These aren't concrete rules, but try for yourself and if it makes a difference, great, if not then forget about that particular 'tweak'

Ultimately, you need to use your ears. No one can tell you exactly how to set up your speakers in your listening environment over the internet. What advice we do provide is very general and may not be sufficient for your unique surroundings. Use a few of your 'reference tracks' and tune the positioning/toe-in. I personally don't toe in my JMLab Divas at all because I find it doesn't do a whole lot.

 

[883dave]

Have a look here http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq.html

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I've always heard that a good place to start is by using the rule of thirds. Start with the speakers 1/3 of the way from the back wall, 1/3 of the way in from each side wall. this is just a starting position, but you can work from there to fine tune position.

Holy Guacamole, if you're ever in Atlanta I'll buy you a beer. I pulled my speakers out way further to be a little less than 1/3 from the wall, and it was like ZOMGWTFBATMAN better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 /img/forum/go_quote.gif FWIW, you may also try having the axes cross a foot or two behind the listening position.

I'll second this. I found the best position for my own speakers to be where they cross about a foot behind my head, and that was through my own experimentation without any existing knowledge or advice.

 

[Dr.Jakobsen]

Check the Cardas website for info on placement according to the Golden Ratio. Worked wonders for me.....

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Holy Guacamole, if you're ever in Atlanta I'll buy you a beer. I pulled my speakers out way further to be a little less than 1/3 from the wall, and it was like ZOMGWTFBATMAN better.

You're on!

 

[Fitz]

Here's a crazy observation I made over the weekend... using a different chair yielded a bigger improvement in sound quality than I got from moving my speakers around. The frequency response curves measured at ear-level in each chair were also very different, so I know it wasn't just in my head.

If only there was an easy way to audition different chairs, because the chair that worked better is nowhere near as comfortable.

p.s. yes this is a serious post.

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's a crazy observation I made over the weekend... using a different chair yielded a bigger improvement in sound quality than I got from moving my speakers around. The frequency response curves measured at ear-level in each chair were also very different, so I know it wasn't just in my head. If only there was an easy way to audition different chairs, because the chair that worked better is nowhere near as comfortable. p.s. yes this is a serious post.

Doesn't sound crazy to me.

Do you think it was the height of the chair, or the materials that it was made of that made the most difference?

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't sound crazy to me. Do you think it was the height of the chair, or the materials that it was made of that made the most difference?

Shape most likely. The comfy one is shaped like a damn parabolic dish and my head sits below the edge of it so it forms an arc behind my head. The other chair was a bit higher too, so my ears were a few inches above the tweeters rather than directly on-axis.