Help me figure out my AVR (and possibly buy a new AMP/DAC combo for DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm?)

[Iv4nI]

Hey everyone!
 
Bought the beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm the other day and now I'm looking at my current setup and thinking is it good enough to drive them long term?
The PC motherboard in question is the ASUS Z87-PRO which has pretty good onboard sound:

Realtek® ALC1150 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC 
- Supports : Jack-detection, Multi-streaming, Front Panel Jack-retasking
- High quality 112 dB SNR stereo playback output (Line-out at rear) and 104 dB SNR recording input (Line-in)
Audio Feature :
- Absolute Pitch 192kHz/ 24-bit True BD Lossless Sound
- DTS Ultra PC II
- DTS Connect
- Optical S/PDIF out port(s) at back panel
- BD Audio Layer Content Protection

 
It's connected to an old (2004) Pioneer VSX-D814 via optical S/PDIF and Pioneer does all the decoding, etc. Pioneer's specs:
 

Since DT 990's are kinda hungry (250 Ohm) I honestly don't know is my old Pioneer good enough to drive them?
I'm a noob so I can't read any of the specs regarding impedance/power requirements.
Or maybe I'm just overreacting.
 
If this setup isn't good enough for these headphones, what would be a good alternative? Am looking at the Schiit Magni/Modi combo, but I think that maybe an overkill for me... Dunno. Looking for your input.

 

[Monsterzero]

You didnt mention what job the Pioneer is doing in the system.Are you using it as a surround home theater setup,or just to drive the headphones?

Vintage receivers make excellent headphone amps.However 2004 isnt vintage.1970s is the era you would want to target.

I have a Sansui 881 and Marantz 2226B incorporated into my home theater/music system...their only purpose is to drive headphones.The Sansui is warmish/neutral.the Marantz is straight up warm.Picked up both on Fleabay for under 300.00

They both outperform my 1400.00 WA2 and Schiit Magni Uber.

 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iv4nI /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hey everyone!
 

Bought the beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm the other day and now I'm looking at my current setup and thinking is it good enough to drive them long term?

The PC motherboard in question is the ASUS Z87-PRO which has pretty good onboard sound:

 

It's connected to an old (2004) Pioneer VSX-D814 via optical S/PDIF and Pioneer does all the decoding, etc. Pioneer's specs:
 

Since DT 990's are kinda hungry (250 Ohm) I honestly don't know is my old Pioneer good enough to drive them?

I'm a noob so I can't read any of the specs regarding impedance/power requirements.

Or maybe I'm just overreacting.

 

First off, 250ohms isn't necessarily "power hungry" - the sensitivity usually still matters a lot more barring a very low voltage output. For example you take an amplifier with max output at around 32ohms, and roughly 1/8 of the output at 300ohms. Using a 62ohm, 93dB at 1mW headphone and another 300ohm, 97dB at 1mW headphone on it, the 300ohm headphone can still go louder than the lower impedance headphone. Output voltage levels only really become a problem on some battery or USB-power dependent devices, otherwise differences aren't that big to worry about while you save up for a proper amplifier.

 

None of those specs say anything about how they drive headphones: like power in W or mW out of the headphone output at what impedance with how much noise and distortion, not even output impedance.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iv4nI /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

If this setup isn't good enough for these headphones, what would be a good alternative? Am looking at the Schiit Magni/Modi combo, but I think that maybe an overkill for me... Dunno. Looking for your input.

 

The Magni isn't really that much of an "overkill" especially given its low price. If you do get the Magni+Modi though you might not be able to use it with the Pioneer, in case you're using that to drive HT speakers and will use the headphones for quiet listening in the same room.That said you can hook up the Modi via USB and just manually switch between the receiver and the Schiits on Windows audio output device settings.

 

If you are not using the receiver at all, then there's still one benefit to getting the Magni+Modi: this stack will be a lot smaller. If you're using these on a desk the area that will be occupied by the Schiit stack plus the headpone resting on the table is a lot smaller than the area that will be occupied by a huge receiver, and you get a headphone amplifier designed to really drive headphones.

 

Still, try the Z87 Pro's headphone output vs the receiver, just make sure the output volume is as equal to your ears as possible. In all likelihood your choice will come down to whether you want to use a physical knob or hotkeys/scroll to corner then click on icon and move slider. If you're happy with it either way then don't spend on anything else.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Bought the Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm the other day and now I'm looking at my current setup and thinking is it good enough to drive them long term?
The PC motherboard in question is the ASUS Z87-PRO which has pretty good on-board sound:
It's connected to an old (2004) Pioneer VSX-D814 via optical S/PDIF and Pioneer does all the decoding, etc. Pioneer's specs:
Since DT 990's are kinda hungry (250 Ohm) I honestly don't know is my old Pioneer good enough to drive them?
I'm a noob so I can't read any of the specs regarding impedance/power requirements.
Or maybe I'm just overreacting.
If this setup isn't good enough for these headphones, what would be a good alternative? Am looking at the Schiit Magni/Modi combo, but I think that maybe an overkill for me... Dunno. Looking for your input.

 
You might consider getting a Schiit Modi DAC (USB or optical), connect it between the computer and the receiver.
As the receiver already makes a decent amp.
 
Or you could bid on this used Schiit Modi/Vali stack.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN

 

[Iv4nI]

  You didnt mention what job the Pioneer is doing in the system.Are you using it as a surround home theater setup,or just to drive the headphones?
 

 
It powered a full 5.1 surround system from 2004. - 2015. 
Now it's sitting on my desk powering a cheap pair of Genius wooden speakers and headphones - when they're plugged in, of course . 
 

 

 

/cut

 
Thanks. Useful info.  
Yea, strange that the manual itself doesn't have *ANY* proper data regarding the headphone output.
 

   
You might consider getting a Schiit Modi DAC (USB or optical), connect it between the computer and the receiver.
As the receiver already makes a decent amp.
 
Or you could bid on this used Schiit Modi/Vali stack.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN

Can't bid on that. US only.
 
I contaced beyerdynamic in the meantime, they say I shouldn't have any trouble driving them with this AVR.

I'm keeping it for now, but I'll switch to something better (and smaller) later this year. 

Thanks everyone!

Regards,
 
I.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Thanks. Useful info.  
Yea, strange that the manual itself doesn't have *ANY* proper data regarding the headphone output.

 
None of them do, otherwise customers will easily see how high the output impedance is. Grados have been around for several decades and they haven't gotten past the high output impedance yet.
 
 
 

   
It powered a full 5.1 surround system from 2004. - 2015. 
Now it's sitting on my desk powering a cheap pair of Genius wooden speakers and headphones - when they're plugged in, of course . 

 
OK...first off...how are the Genius speakers plugged in? Don't those speakers have a volume knob at least on one of the cabinets? Because that means they have their own amplifier built into that unit, the receiver isn't "powering" them and is basically just a preamp unless you gutted the amp out of them (or Genius sells passive speakers I've never seen before).
 
In any case, if they are passive speakers, getting the Magni2 Uber and Modi 2 will save you some space. You can hook up the Genius speakers to the Magni2 Uber's preamp output, and the Magni's volume control will work on it (you need to set the volume on the Genius' own knob to a level that has no noise though).
 
 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Can't bid on that. US only.
I contacted Beyerdynamic in the meantime, they say I shouldn't have any trouble driving them with this AVR.
I'm keeping it for now, but I'll switch to something better (and smaller) later this year. 
Thanks everyone!
Regards,

 
Still think some kind of an external DAC will offer improvement, over using the DAC feature built into the motherboard's (Asus Z87-Pro) on-board audio.
Or even a Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used is fine), which comes with a CS4398 DAC chip
 
Or a Hifimediy external DAC, $60-$70.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN

 

[cel4145]

Bought the beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohm the other day and now I'm looking at my current setup and thinking is it good enough to drive them long term?

Since you already bought 'em, try 'em. Nothing like trying for oneself. I would guess you'll find them to be driven to loud volumes without trouble.

If your AVR has some kind of pure/direct stereo mode that bypasses some of the digital processing (common for use with 2 channel audio speakers), you might also try your headphones with that.

 

[Iv4nI]

   
None of them do, otherwise customers will easily see how high the output impedance is. Grados have been around for several decades and they haven't gotten past the high output impedance yet.
 
 
 

Even though I'm new to this audio world, this kinda seems scummy. Not properly labeling/disclosing your own equipment's specs.
Oh, the Genius speakers were part of a cheap 5.1 surround setup. They're just speaker boxes, the control/electronics was in the subwoofer.
 

   
Still think some kind of an external DAC will offer improvement, over using the DAC feature built into the motherboard's (Asus Z87-Pro) on-board audio.
Or even a Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used is fine), which comes with a CS4398 DAC chip
 
Or a Hifimediy external DAC, $60-$70.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN

Wait...but MBO's DAC isn't being used in this case at all, right?
Pioneer is receiving the raw digital signal via S/PDIF optical from the MBO (Pioneer has a 192kHz/24bit DAC inside) and it does the DAC conversion?
 

Since you already bought 'em, try 'em. Nothing like trying for oneself. I would guess you'll find them to be driven to loud volumes without trouble.

If your AVR has some kind of pure/direct stereo mode that bypasses some of the digital processing (common for use with 2 channel audio speakers), you might also try your headphones with that.

That's what I use exclusively. Stereo/Direct function. Works well. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

Wait...but MBO's DAC isn't being used in this case at all, right? Pioneer is receiving the raw digital signal via S/PDIF optical from the MBO (Pioneer has a 192kHz/24bit DAC inside) and it does the DAC conversion?

 
Oops, I missed the part where you said you where using S/PDIF optical for the connection.
You had started off listing the specs of your on-board audio (like SNR), so my brain just assumed you were using an analog connection.
Looks like your receiver does up to 24/96k (from the specs I could find), not 24/192k (but not a big deal).
 
But as your receiver model came out in 2003, chances are the DACs used were at least a few years old in design, before the receiver even come out.
And the SNR specs on your receiver are not that great, compared to DAC chips used in more modern audio equipment.
So a external DAC (or sound card) might offer at least a little improvement, in audio quality.
 
Currently the bid for this used Modi/Vali combo is $96, (+$17 shipping).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN
Which is about what you would pay for just a new Modi DAC ($110-$120), by itself
 
And the Vali being a tube amp, might add a nice tweak to the audio

 

[cel4145]

^^

I agree. An older, lower tier receiver from 2003 probably doesn't have the best DAC. If you want very good, clean sound, that Modi/Vali setup PurpleAngel linked to would sound awesome.

 

[Iv4nI]

   
Oops, I missed the part where you said you where using S/PDIF optical for the connection.
You had started off listing the specs of your on-board audio (like SNR), so my brain just assumed you were using an analog connection.
Looks like your receiver does up to 24/96k (from the specs I could find), not 24/192k (but not a big deal).
 
 
 
But as your receiver model came out in 2003, chances are the DACs used were at least a few years old in design, before the receiver even come out.
And the SNR specs on your receiver are not that great, compared to DAC chips used in more modern audio equipment.
So a external DAC (or sound card) might offer at least a little improvement, in audio quality.
 
Currently the bid for this used Modi/Vali combo is $96, (+$17 shipping).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-Vali-Stack-/272245287805?hash=item3f63156b7d:g:sAUAAOSwcvdXOlFN
Which is about what you would pay for just a new Modi DAC ($110-$120), by itself
 
And the Vali being a tube amp, might add a nice tweak to the audio

 

 
It says so right there.
 
As far as ebay bid goes, it's not on the table. Doesn't ship outside of US, I'm in Europe and I'd rather buy a new stack when I'm ready (read: have the money ) for it. 
I'll stick with my trusty old Panny for now. DT 990s feel sooooo good. ^_^

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Even though I'm new to this audio world, this kinda seems scummy. Not properly labeling/disclosing your own equipment's specs.

 
In the case of the headphone output it isn't really "scummy" - they see it more as a bonus. Also the output impedance tends to be very high because it used to be the norm that headphone impedance was on average higher, since the engineering that goes into them allows the higher impedance to contribute to sensitivity. If anything, the problem really is that they simply ignored what has been going on since then. These days a number of low impedance headphones have even higher sensitivity than older high impedance headphones, and it's not like this is anything that new - Grados have been around for the last 25 years. As much as lower damping factor can be a plus to some people as it can boost bass, it can also do the opposite, which means that if they were even aware of and relying on this, it's a gamble - without feedback on each specific product line it's hard to tell how it will react to the 32ohm headphone.
 
What's really "scummy" with such products though is what they do with their own target market. Many brands of older HT receivers tend to have a bad rep for badly designed everything and for how an integrated amp that costs less can wipe the floor with them barring a receiver with preamp outputs that you can pair with decent amplifiers. For a start, most of them barring flagship models used a smaller power supply barely capable of providing power to the DSP, DAC, and amplifier sections. Then the box and internet specs are screaming "175watts x 7channels!!!!!" while a closer look at the specs in the manual goes something more like "175watts at 8ohms, 1000hz, 1%THD, one channel driven." They took that measurement with only one channel loaded, which obviously is not how it will be used (on top of which the DSP is probably not running either), with an already inadequate power supply. Somewhere in some manuals you'd be lucky i they would get honest and put in a,
 
*35watts x 7 at 8ohms, 0.05%THD, all channels driven
 
 
Newer receivers from what I gather are not this bad anymore but the headphone output design hasn't really caught up still.
 

  Oh, the Genius speakers were part of a cheap 5.1 surround setup. They're just speaker boxes, the control/electronics was in the subwoofer.

 
Are you connecting the bare wire terminals on the satellites to the receiver? If so then you're using them as passives without the amp in the subwoofer module.

 

[PurpleAngel]

   

 
It says so right there.
 
As far as ebay bid goes, it's not on the table. Doesn't ship outside of US, I'm in Europe and I'd rather buy a new stack when I'm ready (read: have the money ) for it. 
I'll stick with my trusty old Panny for now. DT 990s feel sooooo good. ^_^

 
So you live in Europe.
Guess you must like paying a lot of taxes.

 

[noclevername]

Personally I am running an upgraded asus essence stx sound card with a Schiit Asgard amp. I love the them with my DT 990's, just thinking of getting a dedicated DAC instead of the sound card.