[Shattered (Gamer)]

So this is kinda an odd ball question. Are there any type of drivers (planar, electrostatic) or headphone design other then the standard Dynamic coil that produce less vibration when producing sound?

All 4 of my headphones are dynamic, HD650, AKG k612, and Razor Tiamat 7.1. Due to financial restraints and being new to the hobby, I have only ever used dynamic. I use the headphones for non-competitive gaming and movies with my main goal of immersion. The main thing disturbing the immersion is the vibration of the actual drivers/headphones.

Explosions in movies and games are a good example. The sound is good enough for me to pin-point in what direction and how far away that explosion is. But the vibration of the headphone producing the needed bass destroys the immersion. Basically if I want the same sound with out any or minimal headphone vibration, I believe it would add to overall immersion.

My current solution is to put an extra subwoofer behind the couch, I initially had it under but on the first night we realized it wasnt so "family friendly". Spreading out the vibration mainly caused by bass helps convince my mind the sound is natural. I actually think my ideal situation would be a 7.5 system. With 5 external sub-woofer for bass, one in middle and 4 surrounding.

I've used external speakers my whole life and really prefer headphones. I live in NYC so there is alot of sound pollution and Im restricted by how much sound i can produce. Even just running a single small sub-woofer on low along with my headset gets complaints.

In my understanding sound and vibration are linked, but I imagine a micro-thin electrostatic driver will produce far less vibration then my Tiamat 7.1 with a 5 dynamic drivers in each ear. When the dedicated 40mm bass on the Tiamat hits it physically moves the headphone back and forth at least a 1CM.

This forum has been a great help as it has led me to purchase all 3 of my headsets, amp, dac, wires, and components. All that I am extremely satisfied with both price and quality. As a gamer I started shopping in "gaming" headsets, I was lost in a sea of fancy marketing, misused terms, and over-pricing. This forum was the guiding light to Hi-Fi sound and the science behind it. Thank you for time, sorry for the long read.

 

[MindsMirror]

You can't have sound without vibration. If you want less vibration at the same perceived volume, you need to have the driver closer to the ear, i.e. use IEMs which are physically inside your ear. Given that you said a subwoofer is better, which is basically the furthest away from your ear and the most vibration you can possible have from the driver for a given perceived loudness at your ear, I think an IEM is probably not what you want.

Is it possible that what you are actually perceiving is distortion (sounds/vibrations that are not an intended part of the recording), and mistakenly calling it vibration? If you say the headphone moves back and forth 1cm, that is definitely way too much for any headphone to handle without massive distortion, and probably too much for your ears to handle also.

 

[cossix]

Very odd scenario, but as stated, sound is quite literally all vibration. What I'm surprised by is the fact that even the 650 shakes (I'm going to call it that for sake of a better word) enough to be annoying. Are you sure you aren't listening at some crazy eardrum-popping volume? I'm not surprised that the multi-driver headphone shakes. Those are pretty much crap all around, especially compared to audiophile headphones from a legit audio company.

 

[Music Alchemist]

I think what you're looking for is a headphone with integrated resonance control; that is, the frame doesn't vibrate and color the sound.

The Sennheiser HD 800 has this somewhat. The Abyss AB-1266 is an extreme example as its metal frame is designed to remove vibration and it can handle crazy bass without the frame resonating, but it costs thousands of dollars. You can add resonance control to many headphones with modifications such as this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dam...es-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials.744839

By the way, electrostatic diaphragms vibrate faster than most others. STAX claim this: "An electrostatic transducer is a push/pull device that can transduce twice the information in a given time span than a dynamic type transducer."

Also, if you want headphones that can do basshead-level bass slam, check out this thread:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-hardest-hitting-headphones-are-the-extreme-bass-club.716711

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So this is kinda an odd ball question. Are there any type of drivers (planar, electrostatic) or headphone design other then the standard Dynamic coil that produce less vibration when producing sound?

Electrostats. Balanced armature if you include in-ears.

That said, as much as dynamic drivers literally pump back and forth with longer travel and more physical force exerted by the driver that gets to the chassis, note that planars response in the low will still vibrate if you play anything with loud bass - I've seen LCD-2's and LCD-3's literally moving while someone was listening to bass music on them. And people tend to want that also, especially more than with dynamic drivers that have a comparatively high bass roll off point.

All 4 of my headphones are dynamic, HD650, AKG k612, and Razor Tiamat 7.1. Due to financial restraints and being new to the hobby, I have only ever used dynamic. I use the headphones for non-competitive gaming and movies with my main goal of immersion. The main thing disturbing the immersion is the vibration of the actual drivers/headphones.
-----
In my understanding sound and vibration are linked, but I imagine a micro-thin electrostatic driver will produce far less vibration then my Tiamat 7.1 with a 5 dynamic drivers in each ear. When the dedicated 40mm bass on the Tiamat hits it physically moves the headphone back and forth at least a 1CM.

Are you sure you're not listening with bass boost on? Because I can listen to house and K-Pop on my HD600 with the only bass boost on it intended only to have 20hz to 45hz level with 1000hz, and the headphones do not physically move nor vibrate apart from the driver itself.

Other than that you can mass-load the earcups. Take the HD650 apart, cut up some Dynamat, and stick 'em on the mounting baffle the driver is on without blocking the drivers themselves. That will make the driver mount heavier and and thus harder for the drivers to move them, but not enough for your neck/head to really feel the added weight. You can do something similar on the K612, but I'm not sure about the Tiamat.

Explosions in movies and games are a good example. The sound is good enough for me to pin-point in what direction and how far away that explosion is. But the vibration of the headphone producing the needed bass destroys the immersion. Basically if I want the same sound with out any or minimal headphone vibration, I believe it would add to overall immersion.

I don't understand the problem. Immersion is making it all seem more real to you, same way that when I play Total War with either surround speakers or virtual surround, if I get so engrossed commanding the infantry that I don't realize my cavalry was defeated or somebody got past them, I'll just hear progressively louder hooves thundering behind me and then when I turn the camera around, BAM!, next thing I hear is the crash of steel spears, iron plates, and the heavy bodies of the horses carrying momentum crashing on my surprised arse. Or if they make these games more realistic and when you have VR with Steam and FB accounts linked, when you lose a siege battle, you're forced to watch the sack of the city, then the computer takes the faces of people you know on FB and you get to watch Barbarians pulling them out of their houses, killing the men with your friends' faces on them, the women have your friends', sisters', and girlfriend's faces on them getting their clothes torn to shreds while hands explore every part of their body and that's just the start...because, ya know, immersion and realism. You get to see what really happens if you fail to keep the Barbarians out of Rome (or Beijing, or Kyoto in the Shogun Mongol expansion). Like, you get to see what war is really like, and it's not a freaking game full of fun and glory.

In your case, if the headphone vibrate, it's proper immersion. Similar to speakers can make the bass drum have a kick that can be felt against the chest, if you're gaming with headphones, vibrations caused by sound reproducing explosions is your immersion into the shockwave and loud sounds on an actual battle. Hell, if you get tinnitus out of playing at very loud volume, you can take it as immersive and realistic, considering how common tinnitus is in the military. Ever seen Blackhawk Down? "How many times have I got to tell you not to fire that thing (a 50cal machine gun) right next to me?!....Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh.....huuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh?!" Also there's how they get thrown back by an explosion and everything is ringing and they can barely move. Real battle has all that and soldiers have to deal with it, and immersion in your case is dealing with the airborne vibrations. You are being immersed in the realities of battle, not ruining it, because again, war isn't a game full of fun and glory. More like Showa troops having fun while Nanking ends up a gory mess - Chinese babies tossed into the air and caught by impaling them on bayonets, over the city you hear the cries of young girls as the Showa troops toss them into trucks and they can barely keep their pants on, two Showa officers make a bet on who can kill more males with their ceremonial swords, they start piling heads, the ambassador from Nazi Germany is totally freaking out in the suburbs (you know it's horrible if even the Nazis think it's horrible)...

War is CHAOS, basically, and that is why the Ruinous Powers thrive from it, not just the Blood God, Khorne. I say enjoy the immersion. It's not a distraction, it's an attempt at realism. Don't sweat it - lick your lips and relish your contributions to the Skull Throne.

My current solution is to put an extra subwoofer behind the couch, I initially had it under but on the first night we realized it wasnt so "family friendly". Spreading out the vibration mainly caused by bass helps convince my mind the sound is natural. I actually think my ideal situation would be a 7.5 system. With 5 external sub-woofer for bass, one in middle and 4 surrounding.

I've used external speakers my whole life and really prefer headphones. I live in NYC so there is alot of sound pollution and Im restricted by how much sound i can produce. Even just running a single small sub-woofer on low along with my headset gets complaints.

So basically your problem is mostly that the vibration is concentrated on your head. Well, for a start, there's a reason why soldiers in movies get knocked down by explosions and they go deaf, everything looks like slow mo, etc, because their head literally got knocked by the vibration and their impact on the ground.

Second, if you really just want the sound spaced out all over your body, you can use bass shakers. They hook up to your couch or chair, and are powered by any speaker amp. As long as you don't stick them against the floor or your chair vibrates excessively there is no way that neighbours will hear that, because even you won't hear them as much as you would feel them. People actually use them so they only play the subwoofer loud enough to be audible, but can shake the seats without setting the subwoofer any louder.

No need for a good amp either - they won't play midrange and treble so high THD isn't a concern. You just need a cheap T-amp with at least 8watts (and these can drive speakers just fine otherwise), unless you can find a more powerful amp for not much more money.

 

[Shattered (Gamer)]

Very odd scenario, but as stated, sound is quite literally all vibration. What I'm surprised by is the fact that even the 650 shakes (I'm going to call it that for sake of a better word) enough to be annoying. Are you sure you aren't listening at some crazy eardrum-popping volume? I'm not surprised that the multi-driver headphone shakes. Those are pretty much crap all around, especially compared to audiophile headphones from a legit audio company.

Its really not the headphones "shaking" with the 650, just the literal vibration needed to make sound. Maybe its because I have big ears that make contact with foam that covers the driver.

As far as sound goes, Im ok. So when I asked myself "what more" this is what came to mind. I guess producing sound without vibration is an impossible thing.

I agree with the multi-driver being sub-par, but Razor Tiamat in some situations benefits. Situational awareness in FPS games is insane. Rainbow 6 benefits alot. To some it sounds unnatural due to the multiple drivers being spaced so close, but thats what gives the benefit in game. You can hear footsteps awkwardly going in and out of channels, which sounds really odd and unnatural but also gives really good positioning. Also the tiamat gives the benefit of lowering and up'n sound via specific channels, which works far better for amplifying surround to an unnatural level compared to a stereo headphones using a virtual "7.1 program". Bass control on a separate channel is key, being able to turn off bass helps out alot, as most sound ques are not bass. Also doing all the tweeking analog allows for recordings to sound normal. In short, how gamers use them they are meant to locate very specific sounds in certain games with disregard for all else.

I kinda wish a audiophile company would make a 400-500$ pair without a mic and led's. There needs to be some type of conversion of the 7.1 sound into a headset mode for it to sound good, currently they're l 7.1 speakers just in headset. I would like to hear the difference in an open back, they're all closed due to mic and other gamer needs. I read it a few times on here and agree that experimentation is hindered by reliability, profits, invested research and production/consumer cost. Tho these are just opinions and I could be wrong.

 

[Shattered (Gamer)]

You can't have sound without vibration. If you want less vibration at the same perceived volume, you need to have the driver closer to the ear, i.e. use IEMs which are physically inside your ear. Given that you said a subwoofer is better, which is basically the furthest away from your ear and the most vibration you can possible have from the driver for a given perceived loudness at your ear, I think an IEM is probably not what you want.

Is it possible that what you are actually perceiving is distortion (sounds/vibrations that are not an intended part of the recording), and mistakenly calling it vibration? If you say the headphone moves back and forth 1cm, that is definitely way too much for any headphone to handle without massive distortion, and probably too much for your ears to handle also.

Yes, that makes sense. Just "on paper" I thought a magnet going back and forth would create more force then the two thin membranes w/ electrostatic. But no because in essence its two things creating the same effect.

You really explained it well. Because in reverse speakers far away would struggle to mimic sound close, like a communication from your in-game characters headset communicator in COD or HALO. Or Witcher 3 has a bee sound queue that with headsets sounds like a bee flying into your ear.

I think my mixture of sub-woofer and headset does it as best as it can reasonably be done. I imagine the next step for surround in general is to add more sub-woofers in surround positions(7.1 to 7.5 or something). So maybe in 5-10 years I can combine a headset with external sub-woofers capable of surround.

I want to buy a high tier headphones, but I think before any more purchases Im going to do a few meetups. I live in NY and there seem to be quite a few. There is definitely alot that I need to experience in person.

Im almost tempted to buy the Psyko 5 headphones, with marketing they address alot of my concerns. In reality snake oil. As on there website they switched the product from 5.1 to 7.1 but made 0 changes to the actual model, so credibility isnt quite there. Im putting about a 1% chance they sound decent and a 99% Im going to waste 75$ (cost of used pair).

Thanks for all the good replies. I think it Im just not used to the feeling of headsets. I imagine my brain will just ignore the fact headphones are there in time and just concentrate on the sound.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Maybe its because I have big ears that make contact with foam that covers the driver.

You can set the driver housing farther from your ears through at least two ways.

1. Loosen the clamp so the pads aren't compressed. Extend the metal arms and bend them in the opposite direction.

2. Use thicker earpads like the Brainwavz HM5 angled earpads. Just one problem with that one though - you need to gut an earpad for the HD6xx series and mount the HM5 pads onto the plastic mount that clips onto the Sennheiser earcups. If your earpads are worn out then gut them, otherwise, buy some cheap third party earpads from China on Amazon along with the HM5 earpads.

That said, I'm on my HD600 right now (it's EQ-d to boost 20hz to 45hz level with 1000hz), also with the above tweaks, and I just pushed them in so my ears are touching the foam cover on the drivers. There is no vibration and I'm listening to pop music and house with a lot of bass, plus I just rewatched another Gundam episode, and there is no vibration that can be felt on my earlobes. Chances are you're listening at really unsafe levels that should just be reserved for peak output when you crank it up for a few tracks. I've cranked it up as loud as it can go on a few tracks and the part on the Gundam episode where a positron cannon was used followed by the explosion of a nuclear-powered mobile suit, and even then I didn't get any vibration on my earlobes.

I kinda wish a audiophile company would make a 400-500$ pair without a mic and led's. There needs to be some type of conversion of the 7.1 sound into a headset mode for it to sound good, currently they're l 7.1 speakers just in headset. I would like to hear the difference in an open back, they're all closed due to mic and other gamer needs. I read it a few times on here and agree that experimentation is hindered by reliability, profits, invested research and production/consumer cost. Tho these are just opinions and I could be wrong.

That's highly unlikely to happen due to a number of other factors.

1. Audiophiles don't even listen to music in 7.1 because music isn't even recorded in 7.1, they're only in 2.0. Concert videos in 5.1 aren't even real 5.1 - as much as the vocals are in the center channel along with some of the drums, the surround channels are playing mostly what was recorded among the crowd, so you feel like you're in a concert as you hear people clapping and cheering around you.

2. Logistics and design. As much as you can record music in 5.1 or 7.1 and still have the capability on speakers to reproduce a stage (and on headphones, it's scaled down in size, like that bobblehead toy that starts dancing when music plays near it), it will be a nightmare to just have every system reorient for playback on a system that requires vocals, bass, and bass drum on C, guitars on Exfreme Left and Right, and everything in between on what will be ambient Center-Left and Center-Right. That doesn't even address depth that well considering you basically have the center channel on mono as opposed to the bass drum and bass guitar being recorded in stereo which, relative to the close to the mic lips of the vocalist, will come out with considerable depth - for the most part it's really room interaction tht is the problem here. Add to that how you will now need a source unit that will output 5.1 sound and then an amplifier that has five channels plus an active subwoofer. All that work when a properly designed room with 2.0 speakers can spread out the soundstage left-right and front-rear properly anyway. (More on headphones below)

3. The real problem with headphone imaging isn't even just having only two physical channels throughout, but that each ear hears only one of them, unlike how a speaker system in a room allows both ears to hear both speakers interacting wiht the room for positional cues. Same thing with surround programs - even the Tiamat can't do audio behind the gamer as well as 5 or 7 physical speakers with two actually sitting behind the listener. That makes for how you can easily hear Liam Neeson walking around that other guy in that wolf abuse movie and how Maverick or Luke Skywalker can sound like they just zoomed past you. Crossfeed and Virtual Surround handles simulation for stereo and surround speakers on headphones, respectively; they still won't get the same scale as speakers but then again, even speakers in a large room can't make an explosion 30m away sound like it actually came from 30m away.

4. Compromise in driver size. You have to make the drivers smaller, and the smaller the drivers, the less response in the low end, making them more dependent on the subwoofer.

Hell, even on systems that have multiple drivers like multiple driver IEMs if not also multiple amplifier channels like some car audio systems are still playing stereo, with the use of multiple drivers is for different response range and multiple amps for being able to use DSP features, though still different from the Tiamat's DSP.

I think my mixture of sub-woofer and headset does it as best as it can reasonably be done. I imagine the next step for surround in general is to add more sub-woofers in surround positions(7.1 to 7.5 or something). So maybe in 5-10 years I can combine a headset with external sub-woofers capable of surround.
---
Im almost tempted to buy the Psyko 5 headphones, with marketing they address alot of my concerns. In reality snake oil. As on there website they switched the product from 5.1 to 7.1 but made 0 changes to the actual model, so credibility isnt quite there. Im putting about a 1% chance they sound decent and a 99% Im going to waste 75$ (cost of used pair).

You can already integrate a tactile transducer. Just use an external headphone amp, then have a y-connector going from wherever it's getting its input signal from so the same signal goes into a cheap speaker amp driving the bass shakers on your chair.
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=...rome..69i57.4366j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Shattered (Gamer)]

You can set the driver housing farther from your ears through at least two ways.

1. Loosen the clamp so the pads aren't compressed. Extend the metal arms and bend them in the opposite direction.

2. Use thicker earpads like the Brainwavz HM5 angled earpads. Just one problem with that one though - you need to gut an earpad for the HD6xx series and mount the HM5 pads onto the plastic mount that clips onto the Sennheiser earcups. If your earpads are worn out then gut them, otherwise, buy some cheap third party earpads from China on Amazon along with the HM5 earpads.

That said, I'm on my HD600 right now (it's EQ-d to boost 20hz to 45hz level with 1000hz), also with the above tweaks, and I just pushed them in so my ears are touching the foam cover on the drivers. There is no vibration and I'm listening to pop music and house with a lot of bass, plus I just rewatched another Gundam episode, and there is no vibration that can be felt on my earlobes. Chances are you're listening at really unsafe levels that should just be reserved for peak output when you crank it up for a few tracks. I've cranked it up as loud as it can go on a few tracks and the part on the Gundam episode where a positron cannon was used followed by the explosion of a nuclear-powered mobile suit, and even then I didn't get any vibration on my earlobes.




That's highly unlikely to happen due to a number of other factors.

1. Audiophiles don't even listen to music in 7.1 because music isn't even recorded in 7.1, they're only in 2.0. Concert videos in 5.1 aren't even real 5.1 - as much as the vocals are in the center channel along with some of the drums, the surround channels are playing mostly what was recorded among the crowd, so you feel like you're in a concert as you hear people clapping and cheering around you.

2. Logistics and design. As much as you can record music in 5.1 or 7.1 and still have the capability on speakers to reproduce a stage (and on headphones, it's scaled down in size, like that bobblehead toy that starts dancing when music plays near it), it will be a nightmare to just have every system reorient for playback on a system that requires vocals, bass, and bass drum on C, guitars on Exfreme Left and Right, and everything in between on what will be ambient Center-Left and Center-Right. That doesn't even address depth that well considering you basically have the center channel on mono as opposed to the bass drum and bass guitar being recorded in stereo which, relative to the close to the mic lips of the vocalist, will come out with considerable depth - for the most part it's really room interaction tht is the problem here. Add to that how you will now need a source unit that will output 5.1 sound and then an amplifier that has five channels plus an active subwoofer. All that work when a properly designed room with 2.0 speakers can spread out the soundstage left-right and front-rear properly anyway. (More on headphones below)

3. The real problem with headphone imaging isn't even just having only two physical channels throughout, but that each ear hears only one of them, unlike how a speaker system in a room allows both ears to hear both speakers interacting wiht the room for positional cues. Same thing with surround programs - even the Tiamat can't do audio behind the gamer as well as 5 or 7 physical speakers with two actually sitting behind the listener. That makes for how you can easily hear Liam Neeson walking around that other guy in that wolf abuse movie and how Maverick or Luke Skywalker can sound like they just zoomed past you. Crossfeed and Virtual Surround handles simulation for stereo and surround speakers on headphones, respectively; they still won't get the same scale as speakers but then again, even speakers in a large room can't make an explosion 30m away sound like it actually came from 30m away.

4. Compromise in driver size. You have to make the drivers smaller, and the smaller the drivers, the less response in the low end, making them more dependent on the subwoofer.

Hell, even on systems that have multiple drivers like multiple driver IEMs if not also multiple amplifier channels like some car audio systems are still playing stereo, with the use of multiple drivers is for different response range and multiple amps for being able to use DSP features, though still different from the Tiamat's DSP.



You can already integrate a tactile transducer. Just use an external headphone amp, then have a y-connector going from wherever it's getting its input signal from so the same signal goes into a cheap speaker amp driving the bass shakers on your chair.
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=...rome..69i57.4366j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Thanks for the great response, I meant to type it early but started looking at those chairs and got distracted. I ordered some stuff from http://www.bassshakers.com/ for a DIY project.

 

[Me x3]

EQ the bass down using EQ APO or get something like DT880 Pro or HD800 (pricier)
Those will provide a drier (less bloomy) type of bass that your might prefer.