Headphones vs Speakers -- an Inconvenient Truth
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5genez

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No, none of that was the least bit interesting, it wasn't even on topic. Again, enough of the off topic marketing!!!
 
G
 
Its on topic!   I brought up the Sonic Maximizer because (when implemented with some know how) it can make good nearfield speakers accomplish some of the stronger points that one gets from headphones.  Its not off topic at all.   But,  an enhancement to the topic of "Speakers vs Headphones."   That is why I brought up the BBE in the first place.

 
Please... Let others think for themselves.   There are people who love what a BBE does in their hi-end systems.  You are not one of them.   Let others think for themselves. 
 

I do not work for an audio company to be involved with what you referred to as "marketing."  In contrast... You're sounding too much like you would want to be working for a bureaucracy that wants to dictate to people what they should listen to. 
You had a bad experience with an older model BBE.. OK. In the mean time..  I find you very rude, condescending, and dismissive of something that would benefit maybe a few here who you are trying to discourage. They might willing to learn something that you don't want them to.
 
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exsomnis

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   I have sold audio (hi end).....  The subjective integrity of the sound is designed into each speaker.   No two speakers sound alike. No two amps.   No two DACs. No two TT's.  No two headphones even...
 
 There is no true integrity to be found.  Just different effects on the play back. Some designs eliminate distortions that others ignore.  Just using different speaker cables will alter the "integrity."  Using different phone cables can greatly effect what we hear. The key is.... to find something that most achieves what hearing live music produces in your soul. 
 
How it makes you feel when music is good.  If anyone thinks there is an Absolute Sound to be gotten?   um umm... its not there. With the BBE some will just love how it makes their particular system to sound. If they listen to those who did not like how it made their particular system sound,  they will miss out.     And,  the ones who did not like it?   With a few tips may have learned why it was not working for them...
 
Open minds. Closed minds.    Where do we go in this world?
 
I love how you conveniently ignore the part where I achieved lovely sound already - all without any extraneous equipment. And yes, the music feels great too.   
 
I have an open mind but I close it off to snake oil marketing when I see it. I've been around hifi for 25 years and I've seen a lot of hifi marketing BS. 
 
The simplest fact is plainly obvious. If this device were truly as amazing as you claim it is, then why isn't it already a must have hifi enthusiast system component? It has been around for a while hasn't it? Why do none of the major hifi publications even mention it, let alone have a review?
 
Because it either has a negative effect on SQ or it is entirely irrelevant to high fidelity reproduction of music.
 
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I have an open mind but I close it off to snake oil marketing when I see it. I've been around hifi for 25 years and I've seen a lot of hifi marketing BS. 
 
So... Now I am supposed to accept that I am a BS artist?   Nice way to resolve this issue.  
 
I worked in audio back in the 70's.  Met some very influential and smart people. Some were designers and technicians.  I have not lost contact with such folks.
 
I too have seen a lot marketing BS. I have also had contact with people in the industry that have given me valuable tips and advice.  The audio industry is wide and diverse. 
 
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  So... Now I am supposed to accept that I am a BS artist?   Nice way to resolve this issue.  
 
I worked in audio back in the 70's.  Met some very influential and smart people. Some were designers and technicians.  I have not lost contact with such folks.
 
I too have seen a lot marketing BS. I have also had contact with people in the industry that have given me valuable tips and advice.  The audio industry is wide and diverse. 
 
The simplest fact is plainly obvious. If this device were truly as amazing as you claim it is, then why isn't it already a must have hifi enthusiast system component? It has been around for a while hasn't it? Why do none of the major hifi publications even mention it, let alone have a review?
 
Because it either has a negative effect on SQ or it is entirely irrelevant to high fidelity reproduction of music.
 
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  The simplest fact is plainly obvious. If this device were truly as amazing as you claim it is, then why isn't it already a must have hifi enthusiast system component? It has been around for a while hasn't it? Why do none of the major hifi publications even mention it, let alone have a review?
 
Because it either has a negative effect on SQ or it is entirely irrelevant to high fidelity reproduction of music.
Everyone could be listening to something like tubes if your logic were to be consistent.   But, only a minority do.
 
The general market is mostly geared towards those who don't really understand audio very well.  Ask an experienced audio salesmen who now sell, or have sold audio.  Those inside the industry don't have the same systems many times that the market gravitates to. I have seen some excellent products rejected because the average audiophile does not have someone to show them how to extract the most from their system.
 
I remember selling to a nice couple a system that I put together for them.  One I personally auditioned in my home.  The boss would have been angry if he knew I sold them something for a lot less than what the ongoing opinion was.
 
A few weeks later that same couple came back and thanked me personally.  They kept thanking me. They showed gratitude. They knew they got their money's worth.  I used to have conflicts with some of the other salesmen because they would push and sell the marketing BS to get the bigger dollars. Why did they do it?  Easy...  That's what the average person walking into an audio shop ends up with.   Not always.... But, often times, people are not sold what is best for their needs.  They are told things to make them think its their need.  The BBE  units I have been pointing to are not costly.  You can buy the larger unit (482i) with a 30 day money back guarantee in many places.
 
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  Everyone could be listening to something like tubes if your logic were to be consistent.   But, only a minority do.
 
The general market is mostly geared towards those who don't really understand audio very well.  Ask an experienced audio salesmen who now sell, or have sold audio.  Those inside the industry don't have the same systems many times that the market gravitates to. I have seen some excellent products rejected because the average audiophile does not have someone to show them how to extract the most from their system.
 
 
So what you're saying is, we should just take your word from it, trust some random person on the internet and go ahead and buy this device that claims to improve your SQ - when no expert reviewer or Hifi publication has ever mentioned it anywhere? 
 
Ok, I'm done feeding. Unsubbed.
 
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So what you're saying is, we should just take your word from it, trust some random person on the internet and go ahead and buy this device that claims to improve your SQ - when no expert reviewer or Hifi publication has ever mentioned it anywhere? 
 
 
Here is quite a list of customer reviews of the 482i.  This is the dual mono version of what I was talking about. 
 
 
66 reviews with a 92% getting a 5 star review says something.
 
6% gave four stars.  and...
 
Only 2% gave one star.  (there will always be those who don't like it)
 
 

https://www.amazon.com/BBE-Sound-482i-Sonic-Maximizer/dp/B0002FDKIW#customerReviews
 
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I've been using hardware BBE since the 90's in cars.  Came standard with Alpine units.  After that it was software BBE on my Iphone, Andriod and PC.  My home speaker system always had some sort of sound processing enabled. But for the past years it has an old school BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer and I also use a more compact version BBE 282iR for semi portable use.  
 
 
 
I very much like my headphone setups to sound like my home speaker setups and not the other way around.
 
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Takes more care to get a home in room system reasonably good but when there, I much prefer the experience to ear/headphones and I've owned great examples of both. From Stax to Quads to JHA customs to Dynaudio C4s. I think most home systems are held back by spec bias and folks not actually listening to differences under good conditions.
 
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Its on topic!   I brought up the Sonic Maximizer because (when implemented with some know how) it can make good nearfield speakers accomplish some of the stronger points that one gets from headphones.  Its not off topic at all.   But,  an enhancement to the topic of "Speakers vs Headphones."   That is why I brought up the BBE in the first place.
 
Please... Let others think for themselves.   There are people who love what a BBE does in their hi-end systems.  You are not one of them.   Let others think for themselves. 
 

I do not work for an audio company to be involved with what you referred to as "marketing."  In contrast... You're sounding too much like you would want to be working for a bureaucracy that wants to dictate to people what they should listen to. 
You had a bad experience with an older model BBE.. OK. In the mean time..  I find you very rude, condescending, and dismissive of something that would benefit maybe a few here who you are trying to discourage. They might willing to learn something that you don't want them to.
 
It is off topic. The only thing it is enhancing is your fanboyism for it which we have gotten for some time now. To keep going on and on about it is essentially calling the rest of us ignorant especially when asked politely to stop. Again we get it and please stop. If you wanna bring it up for a couple posts fine but this product is not a speaker and not a headphone and therefore off topic.
 
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For me headphones is a personal experience where speakers are a shared experience. Still I like a shared experience when it's just me in the room sometimes. I think it mostly boils down to soundstage (speakers) and detail (headphones) but I do not think that is the whole story. My hd800's are pretty good at soundstage and my APM 4's are pretty good at detail so I know that is not the whole story.
 
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It is off topic. The only thing it is enhancing is your fanboyism for it which we have gotten for some time now. To keep going on and on about it is essentially calling the rest of us ignorant especially when asked politely to stop. Again we get it and please stop. If you wanna bring it up for a couple posts fine but this product is not a speaker and not a headphone and therefore off topic.

You just tried to usurp by being polite.  
 
The point is. If speakers are going to do a better job at doing something that headphones do?  Then you answer the question as to why I introduced what I did into the equation.
 
The purpose of this thread is the end resulting in success.  Not a contest with imposed restrictions as your "polite" approach just tried to accomplish.
 
You like headphones?  They are great for certain things.  Speakers are great for certain things.  
 
The BBE advances the speakers into a realm that headphones alone have (until now) held onto.
 
That,  I will not change.   That does not in any way mean headphones have been made obsolete. For private listening they are the king.
 
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  Takes more care to get a home in room system reasonably good but when there, I much prefer the experience to ear/headphones and I've owned great examples of both. From Stax to Quads to JHA customs to Dynaudio C4s. I think most home systems are held back by spec bias and folks not actually listening to differences under good conditions.

In room can be very frustrating to get the set up "just right."  In contrast, headphones align everything within a millimeter by default.   Live music is heard in rooms, not in our heads.  Don't get me wrong please.. I am not knocking it that much.  After my early experience with Sennheiser headphones and a headphone amp... I knew that speakers smeared certain things that I would love see eliminated in the speaker environment.   That is when I discovered the BBE systems.  And,  stayed with it since.
 
The new problems I found introduced with using the BBE?   Transparency.  It made inferior cables and interconnects obvious to hear.   Not to mention power cords.  Of course, amplifiers and DACs were able to be analyzed as well as one can with headphones.
 
Its a challenge for me.  I once had a beautiful dream and heard and saw on an audio-video system what was impossible to achieve at that time.  The technology did not exist. Today technology is getting us to where I may see that dream come true. Without a vision our audio systems stagnate. Those who improve audio (and video) I believe must be visionary.
 
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  I've been using hardware BBE since the 90's in cars.  Came standard with Alpine units.  After that it was software BBE on my Iphone, Andriod and PC.  My home speaker system always had some sort of sound processing enabled. But for the past years it has an old school BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer and I also use a more compact version BBE 282iR for semi portable use.  
 
 
 
I very much like my headphone setups to sound like my home speaker setups and not the other way around.

  The BBE will cause problems for those who want a simple set it and forget it system. I find moving just one speaker a hairs breath will change the entire sound and impact.... Stereo is an illusion that requires precision to get it to live up to its purpose.  Like focusing a microscope.
 
Here is an article by Steven Stone where he mentions this effect (not using a BBE)... its got to do with transparency and quality sound reproduction. BBE enhances such transparency!
 
"After initial setup, I found that extremely small changes in the speakers' physical locations could result in big differences in soundstage presentation. Even a cat brushing the speakers as it walked across my desk could move the speakers enough that they required repositioning."  http://hometheaterreview.com/role-audio-canoe-loudspeaker-reviewed/
 
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You just tried to usurp by being polite.  
 
The point is. If speakers are going to do a better job at doing something that headphones do?  Then you answer the question as to why I introduced what I did into the equation.
 
The purpose of this thread is the end resulting in success.  Not a contest with imposed restrictions as your "polite" approach just tried to accomplish.
 
You like headphones?  They are great for certain things.  Speakers are great for certain things.  
 
The BBE advances the speakers into a realm that headphones alone have (until now) held onto.
 
That,  I will not change.   That does not in any way mean headphones have been made obsolete. For private listening they are the king.
 
We get it. You wont change. You done yet?
 
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