Headphones for producing dance music

[montigo]

Hello everybody!

I'm searching for cans for producing dance music (mainly clubtrance and vocal trance).
I will use them for composition, mixing & mastering, altough I will ALWAYS use my studio monitors for final mastering.

Following some reviews in Head-Fi, HeadRoom & HeadphoneReviews, I narrowed my list to the following cans:
- Senn HD280/555/580/590/595
- AKG K281/K501
- Beyer DT880/990
- Sony MDR-F1/MDR-SA1000/CD780 (I saw some reviews saying the Sony V6 are inferior in sound to the HD280, so I removed them from the list)

Today I went to the local Sennheiser dealer, here in Israel, looking forward to compare the cans. I made a test CD with dance music, some pop, rock and classical as well.
It is of utmost importance that the cans will be able to play dance music WELL (tight bass, flat freq. response, clarity of details), as this is what I produce 95% of the time.

I used to work with Sennheiser HD200 Master , which are semi-amateurish, but I liked them a lot. They had a detailed, crisp sound with a low-extended-tight-bass.

Note: I do not consider myself an audiophile, please take everything in the right proportions and don't flame me

I listened to Sennheiser HD280/555/580/590/595, judging mainly how were the able to reproduce dance music, and here are my 50 cents:

- 590 - Worst (?!) cans in the roundup, it was shocking for me as I excpected them to be excellent. they sound too bright and unnatural. The soundstage sounded very "centralized" or "narrow" to me, even the 280 had wider stage (weird). Very comfortable however.

- 595 - Also too bright, the soundstage issue was less horrible than the 590, I guess it has to do with the driver positioning.

- 555 - Sound quality isn't too good generally speaking, and the bass is not well defined nor tight.

- 580 - EXCELLENT headphones. great stage, natural sounding, very pleasant to listen too. I'm not sure if they are detailed as the 280 as they are less crisp, but these are definitely high quality headphones. When compared to the 280 it seems I can listen to music for hours in the 580 but I will get tired after half an our with the 280 (fatigue caused by the mid). The are pretty comfortable too.

- 280 - I liked these pretty much. The sound is very tight, crisp and "at-your-face". These seem like "classic" monitoring headphones, as they provide very detailed sound and you can hear even the smallest nuances. Several downsides: bass is recessed, high-mids seems too strong sometimes, and I think they cause some ear fatigue. These aren't the most comfortable phones, but aren't too bad as well.

Am I crazy not to like the 590/595/555?
I think the 590 has a terrible narrow soundstage, and all of them produce bass which is not tight enough for dance music and may INTERFERE while mixing.

Considering my subjective preference (which you have just seen), should I even consider one of aforementioned Sony/Beyer/AKG cans?

 

[go_vtec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by montigo ... I saw some reviews saying the Sony V6 are inferior in sound to the HD280, so I removed them from the list...

It depends on who you ask

I used to own both and I favor MDR-V6 over HD280. FYI, Sony MDR-V6 is fairly popular for recording studios too.

 

[chrisfromalbany]

Quote:

Originally Posted by montigo Hello everybody! I'm searching for cans for producing dance music (mainly clubtrance and vocal trance). I will use them for composition, mixing & mastering, altough I will ALWAYS use my studio monitors for final mastering. Following some reviews in Head-Fi, HeadRoom & HeadphoneReviews, I narrowed my list to the following cans: - Senn HD280/555/580/590/595 - AKG K281/K501 - Beyer DT880/990 - Sony MDR-F1/MDR-SA1000/CD780 (I saw some reviews saying the Sony V6 are inferior in sound to the HD280, so I removed them from the list) Today I went to the local Sennheiser dealer, here in Israel, looking forward to compare the cans. I made a test CD with dance music, some pop, rock and classical as well. It is of utmost importance that the cans will be able to play dance music WELL (tight bass, flat freq. response, clarity of details), as this is what I produce 95% of the time. I used to work with Sennheiser HD200 Master , which are semi-amateurish, but I liked them a lot. They had a detailed, crisp sound with a low-extended-tight-bass. Note: I do not consider myself an audiophile, please take everything in the right proportions and don't flame me I listened to Sennheiser HD280/555/580/590/595, judging mainly how were the able to reproduce dance music, and here are my 50 cents: - 590 - Worst (?!) cans in the roundup, it was shocking for me as I excpected them to be excellent. they sound too bright and unnatural. The soundstage sounded very "centralized" or "narrow" to me, even the 280 had wider stage (weird). Very comfortable however. - 595 - Also too bright, the soundstage issue was less horrible than the 590, I guess it has to do with the driver positioning. - 555 - Sound quality isn't too good generally speaking, and the bass is not well defined nor tight. - 580 - EXCELLENT headphones. great stage, natural sounding, very pleasant to listen too. I'm not sure if they are detailed as the 280 as they are less crisp, but these are definitely high quality headphones. When compared to the 280 it seems I can listen to music for hours in the 580 but I will get tired after half an our with the 280 (fatigue caused by the mid). The are pretty comfortable too. - 280 - I liked these pretty much. The sound is very tight, crisp and "at-your-face". These seem like "classic" monitoring headphones, as they provide very detailed sound and you can hear even the smallest nuances. Several downsides: bass is recessed, high-mids seems too strong sometimes, and I think they cause some ear fatigue. These aren't the most comfortable phones, but aren't too bad as well. Am I crazy not to like the 590/595/555? I think the 590 has a terrible narrow soundstage, and all of them produce bass which is not tight enough for dance music and may INTERFERE while mixing. Considering my subjective preference (which you have just seen), should I even consider one of aforementioned Sony/Beyer/AKG cans?

I would think the SA5000s for dance music. The bass is quick but has the punch you would like. Need to have an small amp.

DT880's alittle less detail on these. Better soundstage then SA5000s. Need to have headphone bigger amp.

HD650s.. if you like the 580s these are the top of the normal line for senn. I personally find them to be alittle dark and bass is alittle more then neutral. But maybe this is the best choice for you. Less detail then DT880s or the SA5000s. Need bigger amp to power as well.

 

[dave-g]

I'd have to agree with Chris, the higher end Senns would be a good choice. I use the HD600's and have found them to be great for doing final mixes. especially when you're tweaking the eq to get everything to fit just right in the mix. they've got enough bass to give you an indication of how they are going to sound in the big room too so you don't press up something that's just too limp in the low-end. it's really embarrassing when your track sounds wimpy when it's mixed in with another, better produced track... and 9 times out of 10 the dj won't know until it's too late and scrambling to eq it up...

I used to have the 580's too, but figured that i could do without them once i got the 600's, but they are really impressive for the money and a good choice if finances are limited.


Dave-G

 

[montigo]

Thank you for your answers!

How would you describe the difference in sound between 580/600/650?

Well, the SA5000 is WAY past my budget, and the 600/650 are too.
The 580 are expensive enough, so if I'm gonna get them I will get a refurb/used set.

My 2 most important factors are:
1. Tight sound (mainly tight bass, as "loose" bass make it HARD to mix a dance track)
2. Good clarity and details

Second to these come comfort, lack-of-fatigue, and natural sound.
Less relevant - soundstage, bass/treble extension, isolation, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not have a dedicated headphones-amp.
I used Mackie Tapco 6306 mixer which has an internal headphones-amp, which is rated as following:
Headphone Maximum Voltage Gain: 84dB
Headphone Output Impedance: 25 Ohm
Web: http://www.tapcogear.com/products/6306
It manages to push my HD200 (64ohm) very good, but I'm not sure how would it push any of the other aforementioned cans.

 

[Jahn]

how tight do you want to get? you could always get the K271, closed cans that alot of pros use, and the bass is tight for a sealed can. or the K501, which is REAL tight, as in i think it's almsot bass-shy lol. but then you might dial in too much bass to overcompensate and those club hits will be bass cannons in practice lol.

 

[go_vtec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by montigo Thank you for your answers! How would you describe the difference in sound between 580/600/650? Well, the SA5000 is WAY past my budget, and the 600/650 are too. The 580 are expensive enough, so if I'm gonna get them I will get a refurb/used set. My 2 most important factors are: 1. Tight sound (mainly tight bass, as "loose" bass make it HARD to mix a dance track) 2. Good clarity and details Second to these come comfort, lack-of-fatigue, and natural sound. Less relevant - soundstage, bass/treble extension, isolation, etc. Unfortunately, I do not have a dedicated headphones-amp. I used Mackie Tapco 6306 mixer which has an internal headphones-amp, which is rated as following: Headphone Maximum Voltage Gain: 84dB Headphone Output Impedance: 25 Ohm Web: http://www.tapcogear.com/products/6306 It manages to push my HD200 (64ohm) very good, but I'm not sure how would it push any of the other aforementioned cans.

For most practical consideration, HD580 sounds identical to HD600. You need really good amp and source to actually hear the different between them. People typically buy HD600 instead of HD580 for look and/or built-quality. HD650 is complete different beast where it sounds more recessed, but has better midrange, more articulate bass. One caution of using HD580 for mixing music is that HD580 sounds little recessed than what typical people use for music reproduction (headphones or speakers). You may want to check your final mix with more commonly available phones for people (say some el-cheapo Sony cans).

 

[dave-g]

Quote:

Originally Posted by montigo Thank you for your answers! How would you describe the difference in sound between 580/600/650? Unfortunately, I do not have a dedicated headphones-amp. I used Mackie Tapco 6306 mixer which has an internal headphones-amp, which is rated as following:

well i only have experience with the 580's and 600's but based on what i've heard, you're getting a greater level of refinement with each step. but both had a very similar sound and were not fatiguing at all to me. the 580's are plenty detailed too so don't think that they are at the low end just because of the 600's and now 650's are out there. the 580's can hold their own in the studio and are so close the to 600's that you won't regret it. I wish I could comment on some of the other models but I'm pretty happy with my senns when i can use an open can. I'm still on the fence about a sealed can though... so many choices and so many compromises....

I use the new Mackie Onyx mixer (w/FireWire) and it seems to have no problem driving these cans. i think that they put a pretty decent amp in there considering the price. but then again, i've always been pleased with mackie's quality to price ratio, and the stuff is also nearly indestructable!

Dave-G

 

[sgrossklass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by montigo [snip] - 590 - Worst (?!) cans in the roundup, it was shocking for me as I excpected them to be excellent. they sound too bright and unnatural. The soundstage sounded very "centralized" or "narrow" to me, even the 280 had wider stage (weird). Very comfortable however. [snip] Am I crazy not to like the 590/595/555? I think the 590 has a terrible narrow soundstage, and all of them produce bass which is not tight enough for dance music and may INTERFERE while mixing.

Could you tell whether the samples you heard were thoroughly broken in? I.e. were they dedicated demo models or brand new out of the box?

As a HD590 owner, I can confirm your observations - these *are* somewhat brighter than neutral, more so with the stock cable (not drastically, but certainly a bit) and apparently yet more so when not broken in yet. I found that a cable change smoothed 'em out just enough for me to no longer need the EQ (except for removing the output impedance induced bass hump). (What you think of this probably also depends on where you're coming from in terms of sonic presentation.) When it comes to bass tightness, sure they could be better, but I've heard worse (the old HD535 for example, which also has more forward mids and is somewhat fatigueing in the long run; not to mention various speaker setups). As for the soundstage, I think that these cans do a very good job in getting the music away from the earcups - "sticky earcups syndrome" is rarely encountered. They'll go w-i-d-e when asked to but if the material is almost mono it'll sound like that. Fairly good for evaluating sources' soundstage width.

 

[montigo]

Okay. I went to a couple of stores and listened to the following:

Beyerdynamics DT770 - Good detailed sound, very comfortable fit, however these are EXTREMELY bright

I couldn't stand it. They are very good if you like this kind of bright sound, but personally I don't.

Audio Technica ATH D40fx - bad, bad, bad. not neutral, no stage at all, very "closed" kind of sound, too dark. Not too comfortable either. It took me exactly a minute to realize I don't want these kind of headephones.

AKG K240 - Nice semi opened cans, the sound signature was pretty similar to my closed HD200. The sound is good but the bass isn't tight enough for me. It's bloated, and it shows mainly on dance music. As you know, tight bass is one of my main concerns, so I abandoned these cans.

AKG K501 - Opened cans. VERY comfortable structure, the drivers are positioned so they don't touch your ears - causing less ear pressure and also preventing sweat. The sound is very "wide" and "open", trebles are crips though not overwhelming as in the DT770, the mids are terrific, very well articulated and very detailed. the bass is very tight but a bit weak (I would actually make it about 3dB stronger). bass doesn't sound deep, but it is very well defined and accurate. soundstage is amazing - period. best I have heard.

Sennheiser HD 580 - For me, these are the main competitors to the K501. I liked them a lot. They are less comfortable than the AKG K501, yet very comfortable in any means. I think the sound of the 580 is more neutral than the K501. However, the K501 seem a bit more detailed, and have a much better soundstage. The bass in the 580 is a bit less tight than K501, but it is much more present, so overall I think it's better. However, mids and treble sound much more clear and transparent on the K501.

Sennheiser HD 600 - Listened to them together with the HD 580. Very similar in sound, very hard to find a difference! Differences are very mild. I think the 600 has a BIT wider stage. Also, the 580 are SLIGHTLY brighter on upper-mids and treble. In vocals the 's' is a bit more harsh on the 580. I'm not sure if I would pay the extra bucks for these.

Unfortunately I was unable to the the DT880 and the AKG K271, both don't exist in the holy land of Israel. I guess the DT880 is far too expensive for me anyway, even refurbished.

So eventaully I had to choose between the HD 580 and the K501. Both are simply excellent headphones.

I found a single unit of the K501 in an amazing price of 100$ (the box was opened, however the cans are brand new, you can even smell them

). However, the HD580 are sold for 410$ (!!) in Israel.
Besides, the K501 are 120ohm and driven okay by my amp, the HD580 are 600ohm and that would require me to buy a dedicated headphone-amp.

So as you realize - eventually I bought the AKG K501.
So far I enjoy them very much. Indeed excellent choice, and in this price it's a no-brainer.

If I was given both phones (HD580, K501) for the same price, I'm not quite sure which one would I choose