[appletree]

Hi, since I have recently ordered my HD 595 phones and expecting them soon, I am now interested into upgrade of my soundcard. I will use the card only as a headphone output. Currently I am using X-Fi extreme music and after coming through some of the threads here I have few questions.

1.) I am considering these 2 cards among candidates for upgrade:
*M-Audio Revolution 5.1 or
*EMU 0404 USB
Because they both have onboard headphone amp and have also good DAC / price ratio. I guess that EMU 0404 is of better quality than Revoution (and is also more expensive) but I could go for it, if I were sure, that it will work with my motherboard properly. I've read threads mentioning cracking in sound popping etc mainly due to poor USB implementation or other MB issues. Therfore I am asking if there is someone who can confirm, that EMU 0404 USB works properly on mine motherboard, which is MSI Neo F4, (nForce4 chpiset, I bought it some year and half ago)

2.) Also I was wondering if someone could make a chart of these cards, ordered according to their sound quality (especially of their headphone output) and give each card score of 1 to 10 points. The cards are as follws:
*onboard Realtek AC97 compliant
*X-Fi Extreme Music
*M-Audio Revolution 5.1
*EMU 0404 USB
Since I consider EMU 0404 USB be the best let's say it will get 10 out of 10, and the others should be evaluated relatively to it. Of course it can not be objectively measured but I am interested in your best guess. I hope that from these numbers and comparing how difference between X-Fi and onboard AC97 (which I both have at home) sounds to my ears, I could figure out something about "how difference between (Revolution 5.1 or EMU 0404) AND my current X-Fi would sound to my ears". Simply I don't want to put that much money into new soundcard if I will not be sure, that my ears will significantly benefit from it - don't forget that while you may hear huge difference between X-Fi vs. EMU 0404 SQ (and I believe that there objectively is a difference) my ears might not hear as good as yours and in the worst case I perhaps couldn't tell the difference between AC 97 card and EMU 0404 on HD 595. As soon as I have the new headphones home, I'll test them on AC 97 and X-Fi to see how big difference do I hear if any. And please consider the unmodified version of X-Fi, because I don't know how to make any "hardware" changes for the modded version, nor do i not know anyone capable of doing that for me.

3.) Obviously - I will have to use X-Fi before upgrade, which could take a while. Therefore I would like to get maximum SQ out of it (without modding) as possible. I read some threads about kernel streaming and ASIO drivers etc. but I am a bit confused about it. What are the real pros / cons of these drivers over regular Creative ones which came with the install CD ? Especially when the original drivers offer "Audio creation mode" in which "Bit matched playback" can be selected. And also I can adjust the "Master sampling rate" to value 44.1 kHz. Does it mean, that when hearing file which is encoded in 44.1 kHz X-Fi does not perform any upsampling and the sound goes directly out without any aditional processing ? If that's so, why everyone in haed-fi recommends this ASIO or Kernel streaming ? Would it make any difference for SQ / latency etc. in my case ?
Btw when I switch back to "Entertainment mode" the bass becomes somewhat dully sounding (the one thing I very disliked on X-Fi since I first heard it) so it seems like that "bitmatch" option is appreantly at least doing "something".

4.) Just to be sure, is it true, that quality of the DAC used by these cards could be ordered from the worst to best in this way ? AC97 -> X-Fi, Revolution 5.1 -> Emu 0404 USB ?

5.) Please tell me if there is any other good card with built in headphone amp at comparable price. Perhaps I could missed it.

 

[OvidiuDanut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by appletree /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, since I have recently ordered my HD 595 phones and expecting them soon, I am now interested into upgrade of my soundcard. I will use the card only as a headphone output. Currently I am using X-Fi extreme music and after coming through some of the threads here I have few questions. 1.) I am considering these 2 cards among candidates for upgrade: *M-Audio Revolution 5.1 or *EMU 0404 USB Because they both have onboard headphone amp and have also good DAC / price ratio. I guess that EMU 0404 is of better quality than Revoution (and is also more expensive) but I could go for it, if I were sure, that it will work with my motherboard properly. I've read threads mentioning cracking in sound popping etc mainly due to poor USB implementation or other MB issues. Therfore I am asking if there is someone who can confirm, that EMU 0404 USB works properly on mine motherboard, which is MSI Neo F4, (nForce4 chpiset, I bought it some year and half ago) 2.) Also I was wondering if someone could make a chart of these cards, ordered according to their sound quality (especially of their headphone output) and give each card score of 1 to 10 points. The cards are as follws: *onboard Realtek AC97 compliant *X-Fi Extreme Music *M-Audio Revolution 5.1 *EMU 0404 USB Since I consider EMU 0404 USB be the best let's say it will get 10 out of 10, and the others should be evaluated relatively to it. Of course it can not be objectively measured but I am interested in your best guess. I hope that from these numbers and comparing how difference between X-Fi and onboard AC97 (which I both have at home) sounds to my ears, I could figure out something about "how difference between (Revolution 5.1 or EMU 0404) AND my current X-Fi would sound to my ears". Simply I don't want to put that much money into new soundcard if I will not be sure, that my ears will significantly benefit from it - don't forget that while you may hear huge difference between X-Fi vs. EMU 0404 SQ (and I believe that there objectively is a difference) my ears might not hear as good as yours and in the worst case I perhaps couldn't tell the difference between AC 97 card and EMU 0404 on HD 595. As soon as I have the new headphones home, I'll test them on AC 97 and X-Fi to see how big difference do I hear if any. And please consider the unmodified version of X-Fi, because I don't know how to make any "hardware" changes for the modded version, nor do i not know anyone capable of doing that for me. 3.) Obviously - I will have to use X-Fi before upgrade, which could take a while. Therefore I would like to get maximum SQ out of it (without modding) as possible. I read some threads about kernel streaming and ASIO drivers etc. but I am a bit confused about it. What are the real pros / cons of these drivers over regular Creative ones which came with the install CD ? Especially when the original drivers offer "Audio creation mode" in which "Bit matched playback" can be selected. And also I can adjust the "Master sampling rate" to value 44.1 kHz. Does it mean, that when hearing file which is encoded in 44.1 kHz X-Fi does not perform any upsampling and the sound goes directly out without any aditional processing ? If that's so, why everyone in haed-fi recommends this ASIO or Kernel streaming ? Would it make any difference for SQ / latency etc. in my case ? Btw when I switch back to "Entertainment mode" the bass becomes somewhat dully sounding (the one thing I very disliked on X-Fi since I first heard it) so it seems like that "bitmatch" option is appreantly at least doing "something". 4.) Just to be sure, is it true, that quality of the DAC used by these cards could be ordered from the worst to best in this way ? AC97 -> X-Fi, Revolution 5.1 -> Emu 0404 USB ? 5.) Please tell me if there is any other good card with built in headphone amp at comparable price. Perhaps I could missed it.

There is no comparaison. 0404USB is a class over the other two and its a perfect match for 595. Go for it!

 

[appletree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OvidiuDanut /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is no comparaison. 0404USB is a class over the other two and its a perfect match for 595. Go for it!

Yeah, but basically I was asking whether EMU 0404 vs. X-Fi is bigger difference than X-Fi vs. onboard Realtek AC 97. (when we talk about hedphone output) I am curious about how much to expect from it.

Anyway I would be still interested if someone could answer my first question (Does EMU 0404 run smoothly on MSI Neo 4 Fi motherboard with nForce4 chpiset ?)

And also question no. 4 about X-Fi playback using
ASIO drivers / kernel streaming
vs.
original drivers with "enable bit-matched playback" set ON and "master sampling rate" set to 44.1 kHz (when switched to audio creation mode)
Is there any difference ?

 

[RulerM]

It's not a true.
Emu 0404 USB have not sounded better in music than X-Fi.
More detailed but with completely failed soundstage.
Emu is a good for mastering and other studio works.
Not for music.

 

[Ahriman4891]

Quote:

Originally Posted by appletree /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, but basically I was asking whether EMU 0404 vs. X-Fi is bigger difference than X-Fi vs. onboard Realtek AC 97. (when we talk about hedphone output) I am curious about how much to expect from it.

Depends on your motherboard. I haven't heard AC 97 in ages, but mine was pretty bad, I would say AC97.................X-fi.....0404. 0404 is not THAT much better sounding, the difference is more accurate tonality and more detail. I have not noticed any "failed soundstage". My equipment is in my profile and sig.


Quote:

And also question no. 4 about X-Fi playback using ASIO drivers / kernel streaming vs. original drivers with "enable bit-matched playback" set ON and "master sampling rate" set to 44.1 kHz (when switched to audio creation mode) Is there any difference ?

I did not notice any difference. Enabling PPHS resampler in foobar altered the sound more (slightly diminished highs) than going into gaming mode.

 

[appletree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RulerM /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not a true. Emu 0404 USB have not sounded better in music than X-Fi. More detailed but with completely failed soundstage. Emu is a good for mastering and other studio works. Not for music.

Are you speaking about X-Fi Extreme Music or the top version of X-Fi ?

 

[appletree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends on your motherboard. I haven't heard AC 97 in ages, but mine was pretty bad, I would say AC97.................X-fi.....0404. 0404 is not THAT much better sounding, the difference is more accurate tonality and more detail. I have not noticed any "failed soundstage". My equipment is in my profile and sig.

My Realtek AC97 audio supports 7.1 playback I also had AC97 that supported only 2.1 (my old PC) and it sounded worse (newer onboard soundcard genrally means better SQ). Perhaps you could write whether your card supported 2.1 or 7.1 etc or how old it was (or when it was manufactured) for better insight.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I did not notice any difference. Enabling PPHS resampler in foobar altered the sound more (slightly diminished highs) than going into gaming mode.

Well, than I'll perhaps stick with the original X-Fi drivers because I am used at them.

 

[Ahriman4891]

My AC97 was on an asus nforce 2 ultra motherboard for AMD Athlon. I bought it in 2003. I believe it could do 7.1. The signal was extremely noisy, that's all I remember

 

[appletree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My AC97 was on an asus nforce 2 ultra motherboard for AMD Athlon. I bought it in 2003. I believe it could do 7.1. The signal was extremely noisy, that's all I remember

Ah so, thanx. My AC97 is not noisy at all. I bought my motherboard on summer 2005 (nForce4 chipset) I think it sounds quite good considering it is only an onboard audio.

 

[ichiboy]

In my opinion, the modded x-fi creams the 0404 external. It sounds so much more natural.

 

[kamal007]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichiboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif In my opinion, the modded x-fi creams the 0404 external. It sounds so much more natural.

for that comparison, what kind of amps and headphones did you use?

 

[appletree]

Well my HD 595's (50 Ohm version) have finally arived... After about 12 hours of burning in I tested them on my onboard AC97 vs. X-Fi. I am lucky that I hear some difference between those two cards (which is not just subtle) and so now I am really into upgrading my X-Fi for EMU 0404 USB hoping that I could hear the difference between those two as well. There better be a difference coz EMU is about 5x more exepnsive than X-Fi...

I read here that using an amp seems to help HD 595 with reproduction of low frequencies. I can't say that HD 595 has abssence of bass ( When I used EQ it played so much bass that my Porta Pros would tear apart if trying to achieve the same effect

) however I would perhaps appreciate slightly more bass when used as it is intentioned = withou EQ. Has EMU 0404 USB a good amp enough to get some bass boost for HD 595 ? Or will it be enough to improve dynamics of some really fast metal songs (and I mean really fast, nothing that slow like Black Sabath) ? Or is there some other amp, which would meet my requirements better ? How big would be the difference in SQ ? I am not limited by money but I would prefer not to spend too much as I am not sure if buying very expensive device would make any difference to my ears against EMU 0404 USB.

Also I was interested, is there any EQ support in the EMU card / drivers or something like a DSP on X-Fi ? I know guys that you would reject me to use such horrible things, but I would perhaps like to do some testing with that, or use it when watching movies.

 

[Ahriman4891]

Quote:

Originally Posted by appletree There better be a difference coz EMU is about 5x more exepnsive than X-Fi...

Wow, you must have gotten the X-fi for cheap... 0404usb can be found for ~$170 shipped, and extreme music is normally about $100.

You can use foobar's EQ. Just don't pull any sliders above zero--leave what you want boosted intact and lower everything else, then slightly up the volume on the soundcard/amp.

As for whether an external amp will bring enough improvement--that's only for you to decide

 

[appletree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, you must have gotten the X-fi for cheap... 0404usb can be found for ~$170 shipped, and extreme music is normally about $100.

I bought my X-Fi Extreme music also for price ~ 100$ or above but it was a time ago (when X-Fi was novelty) and I thought that since then it was replaced by X-Fi Extreme Audio - which is nowadays about 50$ for bulk version (no box, no install CD). However than I looked at the pictures:
Extreme music: http://images.techtree.com/ttimages/...6033_sound.jpg
Extreme audio: http://img.clubic.com/photo/0190000000386255.jpg
and there seem to be some remarkable changes, the Extreme audio does not even have gold plated conectors. I wonder what is the difference in SQ between those two X-Fi cards (do they use different DAC ? Or why is the price so different ?)
Anyway... I cant get the EMU 0404 for anything close to $170 in my country. Price about 240$ looks more realistic from what I've discovered until now. It will cost me even more than the HD 595s, which I got for ~220$

On the other hand EMU is completely focused on 2.0 audio. Perhpas X-Fi could be much cheaper if it consisted only from useful parts for musical playback (no game processor, no DSP and no 5.1, 7.1 audio etc.)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can use foobar's EQ. Just don't pull any sliders above zero--leave what you want boosted intact and lower everything else, then slightly up the volume on the soundcard/amp.

I tried it and I have to say, that X-Fi EQ sounds better than the one done by software. But foobar itself is an interesting topic, I am interested why everyone here is using foobar. Is something wrong with Winamp 2.91 which I am used at ? Any difference in SQ ? When it comes to foobar I miss the possibility to browse for a files in Explorer / Total Commander then right click on the selected files / directories and click from the popup menu on "Enque in foobar" - I can see only "Enque in Winamp". Is there any workaround ?

 

[Ahriman4891]

The majority of X-fi cards sound the same. There are 2 exceptions: xtreme Audio, which is the same as Soundblaster Live! (worse than others), and Elite Pro, which is better than "normal" X-fi's.

I guess X-fi EQ will sound better, since it's hardware-based. Although it could depend on what driver you are using--in both foobar and winamp, you can use X-fi ASIO driver, which is better for music than the standard Windows one.