Headphone Burn-in
May 4, 2016 at 1:47 PM Post #136 of 162

gregorio

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  Well I know you'll enjoy that "decently designed commercial 5.1" sound stage.

 
Absolutely!
 
  I don't find human hearing untrustworthy and flawed...just fascinating.

 
That's a shame, you'd find the human perception of hearing even more fascinating if you understood how it's fooled and how easily it's fooled. And, the flaws of human hearing exist whether you "find" (or are aware of) them or not!
 
  I'm off to burn-in another pair of iem's after that a few cables!

 
It's your time and it's entirely up to you how you want to waste it.
 
G
 
May 4, 2016 at 2:02 PM Post #137 of 162

castleofargh

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@CADCAM you play 6CDs of different genres at night for 3days to deal with burn in, if you don't provide any reason for any of those choices, then I understand it's a superstition. I throw salt over my shoulder, knock on wood, play 6CDs at night. without even trying to explain yourself rationally, where is the difference? what is it that you expected when making your post? that we would all say "oh thanks, I'll try"?
with your post you don't care about reasons, you don't care about actual impact, you assume that we're way past the debate of wondering if burn-in is an actual thing, how or when it happens, if the magnitude of chances are significant or if most of it is in our head... and just go straight to give us your secret recipe to deal with a problem we're not even sure to have, by doing something that may not be different to doing anything else. 
did I get something wrong?
 
May 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM Post #138 of 162

CADCAM

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  Here's my method of burning in a headphone~
I take an initial listen when I get a hp in to verify the unit is not defective, verify channel balance and check for any obvious QC issues.
I load my Onkyo CD player with 6 discs of different genres, this is obviously to expose the driver to as many different frequencies and movements as possible. I then hit shuffle and repeat. I use the headphone out from the Onk because one, it powers any hp I've thrown at it and two I don't have to leave one of my amps on all day and night. I usually let the hp cook over night approx 8 hrs., stop the process in the morning for an hour or so to allow everything to cool down if necessary then back on for the day until I get home from work. I try not to listen at all during this time as I don't want to get any impressions of the hp's overall sound sig. just a quick listen to verify there hasn't been a failure. I usually do this cycle for a minimum of 3 days (16 hrs per day) which equates out to approx. 48 hrs. At this point I get 3 cd's I am extremely familiar with and listen to certain tracks for no more than 60 seconds. I then base what I'm hearing to my "reference" set-up which is a Keces HA-171 SS amp, Maverick Audio DAC using SS outputs with my AKG K612 Pro Reference headphones. I know the K612 is not neutral but the Keces is very neutral IMO and gives me a point of reference. I usually also listen to my DT880's using the same amp & DAC for another ref point. I then begin tip rolling if it's an iem which can take some time. After I feel I have the "best" tip installed it's back to burn-in for another day or two depending on if I'm hearing any changes. I've had hp's like the Superlux HD668B that sounded like glass shattering against a wall in the treble morph into quite balanced and detailed hp's during this process. I've also had iem's change quite a bit as well.
My main reference system is a straight 2 channel set-up with twin McCormack amps vertically bi-amping Monitor Audio RS6 speakers using Audio Art speaker cable with a Placette RVC doing preamp duties and a NAD C542 as source with Esoteric Audio Cables and Eichmann Bullet plugs as interconnects. I have a dedicated line for this system separate from anything else in the house. 
I've heard some drastic changes such as the HD668B and LZ Z03A all the way to not much changing at all like the Senn HD600 but I am a firm believer in burn-in. This is all my opinion and if another member doesn't believe or hear any differences that is absolutely fine with me...I really don't base what I hear on someone else's opinions or hearing. I trust my hearing, it took me just under a year to place my speakers and although it was a tedious and at times painful process I feel it was well worth the effort. Burn-in is a much simpler and quicker process and if you hear an improvement burning in a hp then enjoy it...if you hear nothing change well then enjoy what you are hearing!
 
I find it a bit odd that members that do not believe in burn-in would frequent a thread called Headphone Burn-in but obviously they do. I wonder if they are here to attempt to change the mind of a member who finds a benefit in it or if they are themselves on the fence. I honestly don't really care either way but I can tell you I have met many fine people here that believe and regularly burn-in every hp they purchase. I also can tell you that I wouldn't go to a thread for a particular hp, any other piece of equipment, cable preference etc. with the sole purpose of trying to sway the opinion of others. If someone likes, say the HD598, which I didn't that's fine with me. If someone enjoys listening from a smartphone that's OK. If your computer is your sole source for all listening and you're happy and think it sounds better than anything you've ever heard I am truly happy for you. If you like a certain cable then use it and enjoy. And if you hear a benefit from burning in your hp's please do! Happy listening people. 

Edited this post but forgot to "quote" myself so here it is. 
 
BTW here'sa few responses I received from from a couple of gentlemen who obviously treated my passion for audio with great respect and offered up these helpful insights~
 
Castleofargh wrote:  I bet it would "work" just the same if you removed one disc and instead put a chicken leg on the headphone.
 
Roly1650's stated: Running music through them without listening seems exactly the same to me as giving your brand new car to the neighbour to break-in, because, hey, the car is so goddam awful to drive when it's new.
 
gregorio said: This is the deluded mantra of so many audiophiles. 
you're doing it wrong!!
I'm virtually 100% certain my speaker placement is substantially better than yours.
 
May 5, 2016 at 3:55 PM Post #139 of 162

VNandor

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  Edited this post but forgot to "quote" myself so here it is. 
 
BTW here'sa few responses I received from from a couple of gentlemen who obviously treated my passion for audio with great respect and offered up these helpful insights~
 
Castleofargh wrote:  I bet it would "work" just the same if you removed one disc and instead put a chicken leg on the headphone.
 
Roly1650's stated: Running music through them without listening seems exactly the same to me as giving your brand new car to the neighbour to break-in, because, hey, the car is so goddam awful to drive when it's new.
 
gregorio said: This is the deluded mantra of so many audiophiles. 
you're doing it wrong!!
I'm virtually 100% certain my speaker placement is substantially better than yours.


While I agree that the manner they used to express their thoughts on the topic is not right but their points still stand. They did provide insight you just simply ignored it. Believe it or not, hearing differences just won't cut it under a lot of circumstances.
 
You described a lengthy burn-in process just to say  at the end it is only your opinion and after that you decided not to add any factual evidence regarding the changes. Anecdotes are cool but they are going to be treated as... anecdotes.
 
I think there was a research done about burning in headphones and the conclusion was that the differences were minuscule. I might be able to dig it up if you want it or you can try to find it yourself. One of the numerous reasons why the idea of burn-in is strange is that if it did improve the sound so drastically then why the manufacturers don't do it themselves? Sure it takes a bit of time and effort, but nothing compared to the whole producing process, and they could end up with a presumably much better product and a better product can mean more money.
 
May 5, 2016 at 4:18 PM Post #140 of 162

pashhtk27

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Maybe the extra cost is not justified over something which is not very apparent.

Am I wrong to say that burn in exists, only the degree to which the changes are felt are variable for all headphones/earphones. And the details of the process are not really sorted out so we have the existence of rituals. AND it is these rituals that anger the critics, and lead to chaos all over the forums. :p
Though, I will say that I read the thread and there were points I didn't really understand. :D
 
May 5, 2016 at 5:45 PM Post #141 of 162

castleofargh

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  Here's my method of burning in a headphone~
I take an initial listen when I get a hp in to verify the unit is not defective, verify channel balance and check for any obvious QC issues.
I load my Onkyo CD player with 6 discs of different genres, this is obviously to expose the driver to as many different frequencies and movements as possible. I then hit shuffle and repeat. I use the headphone out from the Onk because one, it powers any hp I've thrown at it and two I don't have to leave one of my amps on all day and night. I usually let the hp cook over night approx 8 hrs., stop the process in the morning for an hour or so to allow everything to cool down if necessary then back on for the day until I get home from work. I try not to listen at all during this time as I don't want to get any impressions of the hp's overall sound sig. just a quick listen to verify there hasn't been a failure. I usually do this cycle for a minimum of 3 days (16 hrs per day) which equates out to approx. 48 hrs. At this point I get 3 cd's I am extremely familiar with and listen to certain tracks for no more than 60 seconds. I then base what I'm hearing to my "reference" set-up which is a Keces HA-171 SS amp, Maverick Audio DAC using SS outputs with my AKG K612 Pro Reference headphones. I know the K612 is not neutral but the Keces is very neutral IMO and gives me a point of reference. I usually also listen to my DT880's using the same amp & DAC for another ref point. I then begin tip rolling if it's an iem which can take some time. After I feel I have the "best" tip installed it's back to burn-in for another day or two depending on if I'm hearing any changes. I've had hp's like the Superlux HD668B that sounded like glass shattering against a wall in the treble morph into quite balanced and detailed hp's during this process. I've also had iem's change quite a bit as well.
My main reference system is a straight 2 channel set-up with twin McCormack amps vertically bi-amping Monitor Audio RS6 speakers using Audio Art speaker cable with a Placette RVC doing preamp duties and a NAD C542 as source with Esoteric Audio Cables and Eichmann Bullet plugs as interconnects. I have a dedicated line for this system separate from anything else in the house. 
I've heard some drastic changes such as the HD668B and LZ Z03A all the way to not much changing at all like the Senn HD600 but I am a firm believer in burn-in. This is all my opinion and if another member doesn't believe or hear any differences that is absolutely fine with me...I really don't base what I hear on someone else's opinions or hearing. I trust my hearing, it took me just under a year to place my speakers and although it was a tedious and at times painful process I feel it was well worth the effort. Burn-in is a much simpler and quicker process and if you hear an improvement burning in a hp then enjoy it...if you hear nothing change well then enjoy what you are hearing!
 
I find it a bit odd that members that do not believe in burn-in would frequent a thread called Headphone Burn-in but obviously they do. I wonder if they are here to attempt to change the mind of a member who finds a benefit in it or if they are themselves on the fence. I honestly don't really care either way but I can tell you I have met many fine people here that believe and regularly burn-in every hp they purchase. I also can tell you that I wouldn't go to a thread for a particular hp, any other piece of equipment, cable preference etc. with the sole purpose of trying to sway the opinion of others. If someone likes, say the HD598, which I didn't that's fine with me. If someone enjoys listening from a smartphone that's OK. If your computer is your sole source for all listening and you're happy and think it sounds better than anything you've ever heard I am truly happy for you. If you like a certain cable then use it and enjoy. And if you hear a benefit from burning in your hp's please do! Happy listening people. 

Edited this post but forgot to "quote" myself so here it is. 
 
BTW here'sa few responses I received from from a couple of gentlemen who obviously treated my passion for audio with great respect and offered up these helpful insights~
 
Castleofargh wrote:  I bet it would "work" just the same if you removed one disc and instead put a chicken leg on the headphone.
 
Roly1650's stated: Running music through them without listening seems exactly the same to me as giving your brand new car to the neighbour to break-in, because, hey, the car is so god dam awful to drive when it's new.
 
gregorio said: This is the deluded mantra of so many audiophiles. 
you're doing it wrong!!
I'm virtually 100% certain my speaker placement is substantially better than yours.

does it mean that you believe I would lose my bet? 5CDs or 6CDs would make a difference? the chicken leg most likely won't, but I go on a limb here.***badum tss***
 
do something about the content of the posts instead of pretending that only the form is what stops you from having a reasonable conversation.  when wondering if vampires exist and if they're in your country, you don't go "well I stop vampires from entering my house, by placing legos on the ground all pointing south, and cross on every doors and windows". then expect people not to look at you funny. because it implies that you believe not only in vampire, but also in the effect of everything you're doing. so you know things we don't and given how many times I've asked by now, you're really holding out on us, or you don't and we're back to rituals.
 
  Maybe the extra cost is not justified over something which is not very apparent.

Am I wrong to say that burn in exists, only the degree to which the changes are felt are variable for all headphones/earphones. And the details of the process are not really sorted out so we have the existence of rituals. AND it is these rituals that anger the critics, and lead to chaos all over the forums. :p
Though, I will say that I read the thread and there were points I didn't really understand. :D

burn in is such a wide term used by people who usually don't even care to try and remove the "human brain plasticity" part of the equation, that yes it "exists", something somewhere will change when using it, if only from entropy or mechanical wear. but you're right to talk about the degree of change, because we should care. and care if doing something will lead to a different headphone than doing something else?
just like we have no idea if any change like this can be an improvement.  what if the headphone is at specs on day one, and then slowly goes toward wear out until it will break? who decides? just to believe that the resulting change if any will be positive is going way too far in making assumptions IMO.
in my head I see evidence of significant changes, or manufacturers telling people about it for their device, as them saying "hey we make unstable crap! so if you don't like it at first, maybe you will later on."  I would expect people in the hifi hobby to spit on anything that actually shows significant change in a short period of time, for it would be clear evidence of the absence of fidelity. but for some reason I don't get, it ends up just being another trend and you're not audiophile if you don't talk about how good stuff sound after 200hours without a hint of an evidence that the sound actually changed in a significant way. only beliefs from uncontrolled listening.
 
May 5, 2016 at 6:49 PM Post #142 of 162

CADCAM

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  does it mean that you believe I would lose my bet? 5CDs or 6CDs would make a difference? the chicken leg most likely won't, but I go on a limb here.***badum tss***
 
do something about the content of the posts instead of pretending that only the form is what stops you from having a reasonable conversation.  when wondering if vampires exist and if they're in your country, you don't go "well I stop vampires from entering my house, by placing legos on the ground all pointing south, and cross on every doors and windows". then expect people not to look at you funny. because it implies that you believe not only in vampire, but also in the effect of everything you're doing. so you know things we don't and given how many times I've asked by now, you're really holding out on us, or you don't and we're back to rituals.
 

Dude do you actually read what you type? Chicken legs and vampires? That's what comes to mind...
See now if I close my eyes tightly (but not too tightly) I can almost see your system...the white lamp cord speaker cables bathed in buzzing fluorescent lighting as your speakers, slammed against the back wall wheeze their way through "All That She Wants" and you with that sly grin lean back and think...perfection. 
Just joking btw I would hope you have decent system in your listening room. I will say I'm not trying the chicken leg thing though. I'm ordering some new cables and will seriously consider it before adding the cryogenic treatment. Thanks for all your input. Carry on!
 
May 5, 2016 at 7:34 PM Post #143 of 162

Giogio

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I believe in burn in.
And in true love.
I just could not find yet a way to prove the existence of any of them.
Specially true love.
I've tried to listen long enough but it was not enough.
There was always a moment when I had to speak, and that was generally the end.
The only headphone which I'm sure was a bit burned in is the ATH-WS99BT.
I'm sure, because the new unit I got sounds like I remember the old sounded at the beginning, and the old sounds better.
So I'm sure it's not just that I got used.
But I have another headphone (which I don't use too much so maybe that's the problem) which sounds veiled to me, and I was told this improves with time.
I'm still waiting.

I think burn in is like love.
It's not predictable, and may happen more or less or not at all, and you have limited influence on the process and so creating rituals is cool and it's what we nerds do but its scientific utility is IMO questionable.

BTW I think you were in the mood for fight, because I don't see any problem in their comments.
Castle has just a direct and sarcastic way of speaking.
That's not the same as offending.
I know because I'm worse than him but I repress it.
And I know I never want to offend.
I just wouldn't mind if anybody would do that with me, so I do it with other people.
It keeps threads more alive. When one spends enough time on a forum, he needs to create diversions.

But being in a mood for fight is cool too. Temporarily.
 
May 5, 2016 at 7:54 PM Post #144 of 162

CADCAM

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I believe in burn in.
And in true love.
I just could not find yet a way to prove the existence of any of them.
Specially true love.
I've tried to listen long enough but it was not enough.
There was always a moment when I had to speak, and that was generally the end.
The only headphone which I'm sure was a bit burned in is the ATH-WS99BT.
I'm sure, because the new unit I got sounds like I remember the old sounded at the beginning, and the old sounds better.
So I'm sure it's not just that I got used.
But I have another headphone (which I don't use too much so maybe that's the problem) which sounds veiled to me, and I was told this improves with time.
I'm still waiting.

I think burn in is like love.
It's not predictable, and may happen more or less or not at all, and you have limited influence on the process and so creating rituals is cool and it's what we nerds do but its scientific utility is IMO questionable.

BTW I think you were in the mood for fight, because I don't see any problem in their comments.
Castle has just a direct and sarcastic way of speaking.
That's not the same as offending.
I know because I'm worse than him but I repress it.
And I know I never want to offend.
I just wouldn't mind if anybody would do that with me, so I do it with other people.
It keeps threads more alive. When one spends enough time on a forum, he needs to create diversions.

But being in a mood for fight is cool too. Temporarily.

Come on I think I took everything pretty well...did you smile even a little at my description of the system? Come on man give me something...
I clicked on the link for pics of you naked but got nothing...
 
May 5, 2016 at 8:13 PM Post #145 of 162

Giogio

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Well, I always smile when I see somebody doing things I've done :)
And I can see Castle in buzzing fluo light.
I'm pretty sure he did experiment with cryogenic already.
That's why a part of him got frozen and he became sarcastic.
We should try next 1 April changing his fluo light (pretty sure is black light) with a UV one and see if the warmth burns him in a bit. Or out, uaaahg ahg ahg ahg!
 
May 5, 2016 at 8:16 PM Post #146 of 162

Giogio

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SSH, thanks for warning, must have been the anti pandaphilia police.
I'll upload again from the computer of my friends so they'll get eventual legal problems.
 
May 5, 2016 at 8:28 PM Post #147 of 162

castleofargh

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now playing ace of base. it's been too long. 
"so many people are running  round &round, without any sense of logic.
I see liiiiiiies in the eyes of the stranger, ohoh..."
 
that would make for a nice sound science intro ^_^.
 
 
off topic( because obviously what's above was on topic
ph34r.gif
):
@Giogio there seems to be people who expect internet to be the real world in all points, and people who see internet as the one place where you don't have to behave like in real life. I came to internet mostly with online games, IRC etc, so of course when everybody was apparently having intercourse with my mum and decided I was gay, my perspective on politically correct did shift quite a bit. I actually make a lot of efforts on headfi(even if it might no be that obvious). on a french audio forum where speech isn't too controlled, and being offended, not yet a national sport(but coming fast), I'm often a real dick TBH, and it has way less impact than me being sarcastic in here. just coming from different cultures make us have different social behavior standards. also learning english from movies, songs, and internet might have some unforseen results at times. I've been super offencive twice(that I know of) on headfi without any idea I was, thinking the expressions used meant something else...
redface.gif
. too much HBO, not enough CBS.
 
 
 
modo mod ON:
 enough off topic now, sound science is seriouz biznezz.
 
 
(multiple personalities are hard to handle, even more so when one is a troll and the other a modo).
 
May 5, 2016 at 8:40 PM Post #148 of 162

Giogio

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Oh I know something about coming from a temperamental Country and living in a diplomatic one.
I understand you well.
I was told I would enjoy being in France but I'm not in the mood for Camembert and for another language.

Next time you troll around I'll report you to your bright side (as you like Monty).

Let me finish this Comparison now. Last two playlists and I'm off.
 
May 6, 2016 at 2:20 AM Post #149 of 162

Headmate

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In my opinion, Burn in actually works. I cant prove it, but my LCD-2's definitely sound much better after 10 hours of usage.
 
Buy any new product, let it be a car, headphone or amp. Basically anything moving will need a little time settling in, after which it works optimal
smily_headphones1.gif

 
May 6, 2016 at 3:47 AM Post #150 of 162

Ruben123

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In my opinion, Burn in actually works. I cant prove it, but my LCD-2's definitely sound much better after 10 hours of usage.

Buy any new product, let it be a car, headphone or amp. Basically anything moving will need a little time settling in, after which it works optimal :)


But it's exactly that, an opinion. If you had measured it, it would be definitively something else :)
 

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