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HDCD Question

May 4, 2007 at 3:38 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 29
Faust2D

Faust2D

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OK. I have a question. I have a few CD/DVD players with digital out. If I get an HDCD capable DAC will non-HDCD CD player be able to read and supply 20 bit HDCD digital stream to the DAC, so the DAC can decode it?
confused.gif
 
May 4, 2007 at 3:56 PM Post #2 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif
OK. I have a question. I have a few CD/DVD players with digital out. If I get an HDCD capable DAC will non-HDCD CD player be able to read and supply 20 bit HDCD digital stream to the DAC, so the DAC can decode it?
confused.gif



Yes. It's still a 16-bit stream. 1 of the bits has hidden info pertaining to extra dynamic range etc... The HDCD dac will decode the info in that bit, effectively giving you an extra 4 bits of info.

It's neat, my paula cole HDCD is my audiophile reference cd.
 
May 4, 2007 at 4:01 PM Post #3 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by adanac061 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes. It's still a 16-bit stream. 1 of the bits has hidden info pertaining to extra dynamic range etc... The HDCD dac will decode the info in that bit, effectively giving you an extra 4 bits of info.

It's neat, my paula cole HDCD is my audiophile reference cd.


Following that thought. If I have a HDCD (Onix cdp) source but I use the digital (spdif) out, do I need to have an external HDCD dac to realize the full dynamic potential? Seems like the answer would be yes since I believe if the digital out is used the signal has not gone through the Onix's HDCDS dac at that point.
 
May 4, 2007 at 5:14 PM Post #5 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by velogreg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Following that thought. If I have a HDCD (Onix cdp) source but I use the digital (spdif) out, do I need to have an external HDCD dac to realize the full dynamic potential? Seems like the answer would be yes since I believe if the digital out is used the signal has not gone through the Onix's HDCDS dac at that point.


That's correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok. Does this mean that any 20 Bit DAC like Entech Number Cruncher 205.2 will decode HDCD data?


No; regardless of where the signal goes, the DAC at the end must have a HDCD decoder.
 
May 4, 2007 at 5:54 PM Post #7 of 29
Very few new DACs include HDCD decoders, as the manufacturer of the decoder chip (Pacific Microsonics) was purchased by Microsoft and promptly stopped development.

IMO, HDCD is nice, but you'd be better off focusing on a regular high-quality DAC, with or without HDCD.
 
May 4, 2007 at 6:31 PM Post #8 of 29
That I am focusing on. Actually, my buddy makes NOS Audio Note type DAC, so that will be coming in soon, as well as cheap Entech Number Cruncher 205.2 DAC for secondary system.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
May 4, 2007 at 9:09 PM Post #9 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Very few new DACs include HDCD decoders, as the manufacturer of the decoder chip (Pacific Microsonics) was purchased by Microsoft and promptly stopped development.

IMO, HDCD is nice, but you'd be better off focusing on a regular high-quality DAC, with or without HDCD.



Only agree if you don't have many HDCD's. About 50% of what I listen to is HDCD, so it is essential to have HDCD decoding for me. An HDCD played without HDCD equipment is of quite a bit lower quality than a RBCD.
 
May 7, 2007 at 8:43 PM Post #12 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's correct.


No; regardless of where the signal goes, the DAC at the end must have a HDCD decoder.


Thanks infinitesymphony for the valuable information. I own a Presonus Central Station serving as a preamp and dac in my speaker system. I have a HDCD cdp using the digital out to the Presonus digital in through the Presonus internal dac. I just realized through this thread that I might be bypassing the HDCD dac in my player and missing some of the HDCD dynamics which is what I bought the player for in the first place.

So, I email Presonus to ask if the Presonus CS can handle/decode a HDCD signal and get this typical (wrong) customer service answer.

) The DAC chip is fairly good, what model is it?

It’s an AKM part, I don’t know the specific model off hand but it is one of the top-shelf components.

2) Is the CS DAC chip HDCD compatible? In other words can it handle a HDCD 20 bit input signal and output 20 bits to my amp?

It should be, yes. The converter works with incoming signals up to 24bit 192k and nothing is dithered down or truncated beforehand (full conversion).

No wonder consumers such as myself are such a confused and misguided bunch. We rely on customer service to provide accurate information on their own products and we get this misinformation!

Sorry for the rant. So if the spdif out is used in the cdp then the signal is going out (of the cdp) before it has passed through the HDCD decoder, right?
 
May 7, 2007 at 8:55 PM Post #13 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by velogreg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks infinitesymphony for the valuable information. I own a Presonus Central Station serving as a preamp and dac in my speaker system. I have a HDCD cdp using the digital out to the Presonus digital in through the Presonus internal dac. I just realized through this thread that I might be bypassing the HDCD dac in my player and missing some of the HDCD dynamics which is what I bought the player for in the first place.

So, I email Presonus to ask if the Presonus CS can handle/decode a HDCD signal and get this typical (wrong) customer service answer.

) The DAC chip is fairly good, what model is it?

It’s an AKM part, I don’t know the specific model off hand but it is one of the top-shelf components.

2) Is the CS DAC chip HDCD compatible? In other words can it handle a HDCD 20 bit input signal and output 20 bits to my amp?

It should be, yes. The converter works with incoming signals up to 24bit 192k and nothing is dithered down or truncated beforehand (full conversion).

No wonder consumers such as myself are such a confused and misguided bunch. We rely on customer service to provide accurate information on their own products and we get this misinformation!

Sorry for the rant. So if the spdif out is used in the cdp then the signal is going out (of the cdp) before it has passed through the HDCD decoder, right?



If it doesn't have the HDCD logo somewhere it won't decode to HDCD resolution. The converter working with 24bit has nothing to do with it. Look for the HDCD logo.
 
May 7, 2007 at 9:10 PM Post #14 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by velogreg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry for the rant. So if the spdif out is used in the cdp then the signal is going out (of the cdp) before it has passed through the HDCD decoder, right?


That is correct. When a unit is displaying the HDCD logo, that is stating that the digital to analog converter (DAC) utilizes an HDCD chip. The spdif output, or any digital output for that matter, sends a signal that has not yet been touched by the unit's digital to analog converter. The digital to analog converter is what makes the signal an HDCD signal. By using the digital outputs you are bypassing this and relegating your CD player to a CD transport.

I have a Rotel RD-1070 which does have an HDCD digital to analog converter chip in it. Specifically the Burr-Brown PCM1732. So under normal operation, where I have interconnects running from the back of the player to my integrated amplifier, I am using the HDCD capabilities of the player.

I am toying with the idea of purchasing a new outboard DAC which is not an HDCD compatible device. By doing so I am in effect forfeiting, that is giving up/no longer being able to use, the HDCD decoding capability of the CD player. This is again because what determines whether or not a signal is HDCD is the digital to analog converter and I am essentially replacing this part of the CD player.

There are outboard digital to analog converters that are HDCD compatible. As long as you are using an HDCD disc, any transport (that is digital output on even a DVD player) can allow you to obtain HDCD playback.

Make sense?
 
May 8, 2007 at 4:07 AM Post #15 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by TreAdidas /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That is correct. When a unit is displaying the HDCD logo, that is stating that the digital to analog converter (DAC) utilizes an HDCD chip. The spdif output, or any digital output for that matter, sends a signal that has not yet been touched by the unit's digital to analog converter. The digital to analog converter is what makes the signal an HDCD signal. By using the digital outputs you are bypassing this and relegating your CD player to a CD transport.

I have a Rotel RD-1070 which does have an HDCD digital to analog converter chip in it. Specifically the Burr-Brown PCM1732. So under normal operation, where I have interconnects running from the back of the player to my integrated amplifier, I am using the HDCD capabilities of the player.

I am toying with the idea of purchasing a new outboard DAC which is not an HDCD compatible device. By doing so I am in effect forfeiting, that is giving up/no longer being able to use, the HDCD decoding capability of the CD player. This is again because what determines whether or not a signal is HDCD is the digital to analog converter and I am essentially replacing this part of the CD player.

There are outboard digital to analog converters that are HDCD compatible. As long as you are using an HDCD disc, any transport (that is digital output on even a DVD player) can allow you to obtain HDCD playback.

Make sense?


Very much so. I feel kind of foolish not realizing that by using a better external dac I was bypassing the HDCD capability, but at least I know now.
 
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