[Marco2]

I use Cardas on 600's and Equinox on 650's. In my experience they do make a worthwhile difference in SQ and help get the last ounce of goodness out of them.

 

[Gamerphile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangellydonut /img/forum/go_quote.gif Even among the EEs, very few ever spent much time looking at "signal integrity" in detail. I would venture to say 90+% of the EEs doesn't really understand what "signal integrity" really means, other than paying some lip service. I don't understand it all either, but I have worked on it for about 2 years. I've been totally amazed at the number of people who design by trial-and-error, until a catastrophic failure occurs. (it served me well in college... let's leave it at that) If you ask "most EEs" what is the speed of signal transmission in a coaxial cable and speed of a PCB trace, most wouldn't know or care. The "theory" says electrical signals travel through wire at speed of light. The practical number for coax is approximately 3/4 speed of light, PCB trace only about 1/2 speed of light. This is not the appropriate place to talk about why, just giving you some example as to "reality" vs. "theory". Another example - In theory, them voltage regulators in your iPods etc should provide a good amount of filtering of noise from external power supply. (Same can be said about your home receiver) But I can easily hear ground-noise when listening to music with the ipod plugged into the wall. Lastly, there's that apple power supply issue I mentioned in an earlier post. When I first graduated college, I was completely skeptical of all these wiring claims too... I STILL think speaker bi-wire is a myth. As I learned more about impedance matching, insertion loss, return loss, and all that jazz, I've realized how far reality is from theory. Today, until I've seen spectrum analyzer sweep of some setup under various noise injection and cable configuration conditions, I will remain open-minded. dBs - thanks for the info =) I definitely don't know enough about this topic nor pretend to, just know a little more than "most EEs" =P haha... (dude, when I was interviewing people, I was totally amazed at how clueless 80% of the interviewees were...)

Interesting stuff. I'm on the digital side my self - computer science etc. moving to wards more analog issues in EE style due to audio classes. My experience is that no matter what you know there is always something more to it which will point you at even more questions. The only thing you can do is astablish a point of reference for which level of detail you want and work your way towards getting that. Also very few people are actually really bright with this stuff and even with in headphone quistions we talk about everyday here there is just no research publicly available. I doubth any companies look into these things as they usually are more of academic instrest to most due to the many other factors which bottlenecks the sound before these things matter or the gain is simply to small versus the research requirements compared to traditional subjects of research.
At work my experince is that guys who have been developing audio equipment for a long time is more worth than 3 professors in audio science. These guys can always answer my quistions and related them to their real life experince in products and know whats feasble in real life due to production, marked and price considerations etc.
About half the time I have a bright idea at work which is related to these subjects someone shoots them down due to real life implications - its that they couldn't be made most of the time - this niche with headphones and related items are just so small VS expenses of making or researching. Infact the reason I got into audio engineering is partly driven by trying to do something good with this stuff in my spare to which my work might be able to materialize if they got enough research and I can proff that it will work.

 

[dBs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max F /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a strange feeling that if the stock hd580/600 cable was a little more thicker and stiffer (and not a wet noodle it is now), that folks wouldn't be so harsh on it. Just a thought.

I honestly like the flexibility of it. I wish all cables were that flexible, but SQ>flexibility. Though it is annoyingly long =P

 

[dBs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangellydonut /img/forum/go_quote.gif EdBs - thanks for the info =) I definitely don't know enough about this topic nor pretend to, just know a little more than "most EEs" =P haha... (dude, when I was interviewing people, I was totally amazed at how clueless 80% of the interviewees were...)

...wellllll, I am struggling to find an EE job right now...

 

[mbd2884]

One thing for sure...

I have one of the newer HD650s, white, and whenever I read cables that still claim, removes veil... that confounds me. There is no veil to remove!

Anyways, I did buy an aftermarket cable, hopefully here end of next week. Price was more than I ideally liked, but I know exactly how it is constructed and know I pretty much only paying about $35 for labor fees. So that's good

I have not heard my HD650s through a tube amp yet (Jade someday in the future), but damn they sound good, listening to KoxBox and Pleiadians through the Compass. Hybrid also sounds great through this combo, but found music like Chevelle I prefer on AD900s. Very OT I know, sorry, but listening to these tunes now had to write something in response to the morons who write HD650s are slow. It doesn't get much faster than Psy-Trance.

 

[tdogzthmn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif One thing for sure... I have one of the newer HD650s, white, and whenever I read cables that still claim, removes veil... that confounds me. There is no veil to remove!

What do you mean by white?

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdogzthmn /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you mean by white?

Meaning the white cover material under the foam. The cover mesh protecting the drivers. Older HD650's have black cover mesh when never models have white.

 

[dBs]

Newer drivers have a metallic mesh, hence the "white". The older versions did not.

 

[dBs]

Well I just got my aftermarket Double Helix Cable and I can say that it makes a perceivable difference in the nature of the sound. For me it seems fairly night and day. Things just sound faster. The highs have more presence to be sure and the bass is a bit more impactful. When I say the highs have more presence I dont mean the very tip top of the highs, more the 7-14kHz range maybe. The speed and the highs are where the real differences are though. The "veil" is something that can only be recognized by its absence, and its absence is profound.

I am loving the shorter length of this cable. Even if, by some small chance, the auditory difference is placebo, at the very least it was worth it not to trip over my cable any longer. Its also lighter weight despite its bulkier size, thats certainly a pleasant ancillary benefit.

 

[Joelby]

Haven't had them very long. Enjoying the sound, do I really need aftermarket? I think it will be the last piece to this puzzle.

 

[scootermafia]

The thing with an aftermarket cable is that it is a guaranteed removal of a bottleneck in your system, it's analogous to putting a new exhaust on your car. It adds a few horsepower and is a very nice touch...it does not have the ability to drastically alter your sound the way adding a beta22 in place of a CMOY would - that would be the equivalent of dropping in a big block V8 - but it's a perceivable and pleasing improvement for not very much money.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

If the hand-soldered $2 completely unshielded BNC to alligator leads is good enough for the 60 MHz scopes at school, it's good enough for my ears. We frequently measure 1 MHz+ 0-5V signals with those with noise floors of over -80dBFS on those things.

I'm with the your ears aren't that sensitive group.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

Quote:

If you ask "most EEs" what is the speed of signal transmission in a coaxial cable and speed of a PCB trace, most wouldn't know or care. The "theory" says electrical signals travel through wire at speed of light. The practical number for coax is approximately 3/4 speed of light, PCB trace only about 1/2 speed of light. This is not the appropriate place to talk about why, just giving you some example as to "reality" vs. "theory".

Theory says that electrical signals travel through wires near the speed of light UNDER IDEAL CONDITIONS. Theory also "correctly" predicts that electrical signals travel only about half the speed of light in PCB traces, given careful consideration of the parameters involved. For electrical signals, the theory completely describes reality as we know it and for all intents and purposes, is reality until we can observe a phenomenon which contradicts our theory.

But we as Electrical Engineers, we don't think about this theory in great detail often. Our job is to be practical, to make useful compromises when designing products. Sure we could design an MP3 player with ridiculous audio quality in mind, shield every single chip from each other, use 8-layer PCBs to route all our signals, then finally enclose the entire thing in a Faraday cage. But such a player would be prohibitively expensive to make, and would completely fail in the marketplace.

 

[Gamerphile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzN1337c0d3r /img/forum/go_quote.gif But we as Electrical Engineers, we don't think about this theory in great detail often. Our job is to be practical, to make useful compromises when designing products. Sure we could design an MP3 player with ridiculous audio quality in mind, shield every single chip from each other, use 8-layer PCBs to route all our signals, then finally enclose the entire thing in a Faraday cage. But such a player would be prohibitively expensive to make, and would completely fail in the marketplace.

This is however tons of best practices so I don't fully agree with you. I know several companies who do a lot to shield and separate the chips and that one of the reasons why B&O, Sennheiser etc. sounds so much nicer than your cheap stuff. Also one thing I've noticed Creative is particularly bad at - many companies simply just cut the cost where they think few will hear it. Ironically the extra cost isn't that big but when you arn't in a strong Hi-Fi company its very hard to explain marketing that you need to up the target unit price with say 0.30 USD just for a little extra in sound quality. Others budget with that in mind - simple reality. On the flip side small high-end companies don't have this problem as much since they usually don't have anyone telling them a unit price as long as its in the general area of the target.

 

[vdub]

I aggree with suntory times all the way. First a balanced setup is superior to a single ended cable and the jena labs cryo is one of the best wire you can get for warmth and detail IMO. ALO audio makes a nice cable, yet a bit pricey.