[setmenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermitt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Altho I've grown up around guns all my life (stepfather was a small arms instructor, M-1 Garrand sharpshooter and marksman in the Air Force) the only 'firearms I currently have in the house are these. Baikal Izh46M My pride & jpy Steyer LP2 (10 meter match pistol) The steyer is a fantastic prescision target pistol and I can shoot it indoors from right here in my den very inexpensively. I use a scuba bottle to refill the air cylinder. $5 worth of clean diver's air last me about a year. Right now I'm working on trying to get 10 shot groups at 10 meters (33 feet) about the size of a dime, single hand and open sights.

ooo, I would love to get my hands on that Baikal!
I agree about the Steyer,I have shot that model on many occasions.
My own pistol is a Morini 162E.
The electronic trigger is a delight, the pistol seems ever so forgiving,even on a bad day I end up with decent groups.
I also love long range shooting with match air pistols,50 yards is great fun.
Air 'free' pistol comps are regularly held at my club.

Unfortunately cartridge pistols were banned in the UK , otherwise I would have built up a fair collection of historic semis by now.

I do still enjoy my muzzle loaders though..

This is great thread, hope it does not end up closed!


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[Old Pa]

With a title like "old guns", I guess I should first explain that my idea of "the good old days" is last Tuesday and Wednesday. I admire antique match, wheel, flint, percussion and black powder firearms, but within their own context and era. Since I only own guns that I shoot, my orientation to firearms is based along those lines. And these are my idea of "old guns":

The top rifle is a Model 1917 Eddystone Enfield in .30-06. It was the principal arm of the American Expeditionary Force to France in 1917. With its powerful cartridge, good protected sights, robust yet balanced construction, and reliable strong action it represents arguably the high point of turnbolt battle rifles. It's equipped with a period shooting sling and an aftermarket trigger kit, but is otherwise stock. With Russian .30-06 surplus ammunition and using iron sights, it's good for the 14" gong at 400 yards with me shooting. You have to get used to Enfield's "****** on close". (Isn't HF's censor software wonderful?)

The lever action is a Model 1892 Winchester saddle ring carbine in .44-40WCF made in 1921. The design was a midlife contribution from the American firearms genius John Moses Browning, as were most of Wichester's lever action designs. This particular carbine was a gift from my old partner in Chicago after he received it out of his late uncle's estate, who was the original owner. My partner had thought it was chambered in .44Rem Mag, and the strong receiver survived his mistake. It is equipped with a period Marble tang rear sight, has the original rear site dovetail blocked, but is otherwise stock. For me, it is about a 3" gun at 100 yards but has considerable historical, sentimental, and financial value.

The lower bolt rifle is a Lee SMLE. I can't tell you much of its history other than it's a Mark IV and saw third world service before coming into my hands. The "Smelly" in five variants saw service from 1890 through the Russian debacle in Afghanistan and was the principal rifle for the Commonwealth through World War II. This is the rifle that oversaw the zenith and sunset of the British Empire. It's .303 cartridge also went through several developmental evolutions and still remains the standard for testing Soviet body armor.

It's a fairly recent aquisition of mine and shoots pretty loose.

The bottom rifle is a Remington Model 1909 .22S/L/LR pump/slide/trombone. It is the takedown version favored by woodsmen and that is the dissassembly thumbscrew you see on the receiver above the trigger. The slide/trombone/pump category of .22LR rifles was extremely popular and competitive right after the turn of the twentieth century. Many really fine rifles (and more than a few real dogs) of this type were manufactured in the U.S. This is a good one. It is my first firearm and was given to me on my twelfth birthday by a maternal grandmother. It had been my maternal grandfather's, who died before I was born and whose first name I share, and wears a replacement cherrywood buttstock carved by him. Look at the drop that was customary in this .22 and in the Model 1892! I had loaned this Remington to my father after I was out of the house so that he would have something available for pests, but his idea of casing it was to wrap it in an unwashed salty doormat, and so now its bluing is splotched. Probably the source for another thread, but after a lifetime of lecturing you on personal responsibility and taking care of your and others property, how many of you have had your father wreck something that they knew was dear to you and then give you the "contractor's shrug"?

All of these firearms represent the dawn of the modern era of firearm design and construction, utilizing smokeless propellants, jacketed bullets, and modern manufacture techniques. The fit and finish of all of these bears witness to the makers' pride and the customers' expectations. It's both a continuity of history and culture and a time that's gone and not coming back.

 

[DSlayerZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course not. You can't hurt people with headphones (maybe garrotting? lol). No, I'm not amoral: Ideally said 'invader' wouldn't have access to a firearm either. But we know that's never going to happen, so moot point. Anyway, some impressive (in some respects) looking implements shown on here, enjoy the thread!

sigh... in my opinion... I do not find the difference between getting a gun or not.. I mean, weapons are weapons... they would not kill unless someone is operating them. Lets say, if a person is decided to kill you... he don't really need a gun to do does he? there are bunch of material around us that can become a murder weapon. I do not think the restriction of owning gun is such a good idea since most likely, the guns that are used for crime are either stolen or unregister guns from the black market. If the bad guys can get them easily, why can't us normal citizens keep one just for our own sake

Death in violent crime is not right, but I think it is more wrong if the guilty one was able to survive and walk away simply because he owns a gun and the victim is defenseless. Is funny how people think guns are scary when they never live in an environment that guns are not allow. But to be true.... people don't usually just pull out a gun in a middle of the street and street and start shooting on a daily bases. well.. at least where I live things does not happen like this

I still remember the videos that my heath teacher played for us explaining the danger and "horrible" tragedy involved with guns, but seriously.. when I see the video, I was laughing my ass off in the middle of the video, because all those so call "tragedy" are due to the stupidity of parents that do not keep weapons safe from their children, and most importantly, they did not teach their kids the way that guns work (perhaps, judging from the videos even the parents don't even know... I mean... what are the chances of some dumb ass that left bullets inside a gun when they store it

) The kids just pick up the gun, without apparent reason... pulls the trigger when it is facing their friends or toward them self hmm..... seriously... if they have just any knowledge toward gun.. or even play with a air soft... they know they are not suppose to do that..

In my opinion, parents should at least warn their kids and teach them about gun safeties when they buy a gun... not teaching them how to kill, but to know how it works so they won't kill them self in some stupid actions.

And also, yes, I love guns... probably gonna collect them after I enter society. not now, since I am in college.

But here is my history,
I think I start playing with Air soft at around 4 years old... it was a gift from my dad... it was a small gas gun.... which... my little sis torn them later apart when she was around 5 years old (still don't get how she did that though.. because she torn apart two gas gun in the toy room with out tool or anything.

)
My god father gave me a spring loaded gun for my 8th years old birth day then receive another one at my 10 year old birth date... My father constant telling me stories about his job when he was in the military and what not to do with a weapon...
After I came to America, one of the friend of my father showed us his collection of hand guns and automatic weapons(for got what they are called )
I learned more about the caution that I need to take to handle guns after that.
In my consideration, as long as you handle something carefully and knowing what you are doing, you should be fine.
I mean, when you are driving, you are literally strolling a machine with highly explosive liquid and ready to use fire/spark that will ignite the gas at anytime, and consider the death cause by car accidents every year, Why I didn't see the country prohibit average citizens from owning cars, and let all of us take buses instead, I mean, it is more energy efficient and also safer, right?

I don't think simply saying guns are not allow because it scares you because it is a weapon make much since, since people can do so much worse with just average, consumer products that we do everyday as long as you use your brain to think what they can be use as a weapon.

 

[necropimp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have to get used to Enfield's "****** on close". (Isn't HF's censor software wonderful?)

i wouldn't call it an enfield action

the british P13, P14, and US Model 1917 use a british variant of the 1895 mauser action (the P13 was a result of british soldiers being at the reciving end of some mausers during the boer war and saying "i want what they have"... same thing happened to the US in the spanish-american war which is where the M1903 came from)

i should also mention i wish i had a M1917 (as well as a M1903) in my collection

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by necropimp /img/forum/go_quote.gif i wouldn't call it an enfield action the british P13, P14, and US Model 1917 use a british variant of the 1895 mauser action (the P13 was a result of british soldiers being at the reciving end of some mausers during the boer war and saying "i want what they have"... same thing happened to the US in the spanish-american war which is where the M1903 came from)

From Smith & Smith's classic authoritative reference Small Arms of the World, 10th Revised Edition, at page 622:

"The entry of the United States into World War I found this country with a very limited supply of M1903 rifles on hand . . . . and only two plants tooled to produce this rifle. Three large gun plants . . . . were completing large contracts for the British-designed caliber .303 P14 (Enfield) (emphasis added) rifles. . . . The P14 had been originally designed as the P13 for a rimless caliber .280 cartridge; it was not difficult to modify the design to use the U.S. caliber.30 M1906 cartridge. Additional modifications were made to simplify production and to standardize parts between plants and in this manner the U.S. caliber .30 Rifle Model 1917 (or Enfield as it is commonly known) (emphasis added) was born.

The Model 1917 is a modified Mauser with frontal locking lugs that c**ks,

as the British Lee Enfield (emphasis added) on the forward push of the bolt."

If Enfield is good enough for Smith & Smith in referring to the Model 1917, it's good enough for me. I have never heard the Model 1917 referred to as a "Mauser", although it certainly has some characteristics of Paul Mauser's famous and long-lived design as do most modern turnbolt rifles.

While the Boers started out fighting the British with 8mm Mausers, most of them were using captured SMLEs by the end of the war for obvious logistical reasons. Americans carrying .30-40 Krags in Cuba were most impressed with the Spanish troops' 7x57mm Mausers, especially the velocity of the bullets. It took two more tries however, to get the U.S. from the .30-40 to the .30-06. I had a Krag years ago, but found it fragilly complex and ballistically unimpressive.

 

[Hermitt]

A few years ago my son bought one of those enfield .303 from a local Big 5 sporting goods store for like $85. They were selling them as deer rifles

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermitt /img/forum/go_quote.gif A few years ago my son bought one of those enfield .303 from a local Big 5 sporting goods store for like $85. They were selling them as deer rifles

Yup, they were up to $120 when I got mine. But the clerk let me look through the eight or ten they had in. All the bores looked pretty clean and this one had the best wood (read: least damage). I got a machined rear aperture sight through Numrich to replace the very basic flip peep that came on it, got a couple hundred pieces of brass, some dies, couple hundred 180 grain .303s, primer and powder and it was like going back to the African veldt, the Egyptian plains, India, the WWI trenches, across the frozen tundra, Sword Beach and Operation Marketgarden, across North Africa, and in the jungles of Borneo at a time when the sun never set on the British Empire.

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermitt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Altho I've grown up around guns all my life (stepfather was a small arms instructor, M-1 Garrand sharpshooter and marksman in the Air Force) the only 'firearms I currently have in the house are these. My pride & jpy Steyer LP2 (10 meter match pistol) The steyer is a fantastic prescision target pistol and I can shoot it indoors from right here in my den very inexpensively. I use a scuba bottle to refill the air cylinder. $5 worth of clean diver's air last me about a year. Right now I'm working on trying to get 10 shot groups at 10 meters (33 feet) about the size of a dime, single hand and open sights.

I've got an Anschutz air rifle that uses compressed air too. I really like that feature of it, more convenient than CO2.

In regards to the Enfields, Pa, you might like better the sights on the No. 4 Mk II. The rear sight has the battle sight but flips up for a micrometer sight. I haven't shot mine in a long time, ran out of sources for cheap ammo.

 

[Hermitt]

The Anschutz 9003 without sights runs about $2400 at Pilkguns.com

I've kindof got my sights on the Steyer LG110 with sights for about $2300. Still a lot of dough tho. Compressed air is really ecconomical when you own your own scuba bottles

-> http://www.pilkguns.com/precisionar.shtml

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermitt /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Anschutz 9003 without sights runs about $2400 at Pilkguns.com I've kindof got my sights on the Steyer LG110 with sights for about $2300. Still a lot of dough tho. Compressed air is really ecconomical when you own your own scuba bottles -> http://www.pilkguns.com/precisionar.shtml

I can't remember what my model is off hand but I seem to think that it's a 2002.

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2bwire /img/forum/go_quote.gif In regards to the Enfields, Pa, you might like better the sights on the No. 4 Mk II. The rear sight has the battle sight but flips up for a micrometer sight. I haven't shot mine in a long time, ran out of sources for cheap ammo.

That's exactly what I got from Numrich and dropped right into the receiver cuts. Works like a charm. Don't really know what accuracy potential there is with the locking lugs on the back of the bolt. I am my own source of cheap ammunition.

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's exactly what I got from Numrich and dropped right into the receiver cuts. Works like a charm. Don't really know what accuracy potential there is with the locking lugs on the back of the bolt. I am my own source of cheap ammunition.

Oh, you do have a No. 4 Mk. 2. I didn't really look at the picture. My K98k's shot better than my Enfield but I have more fun with the Enfield. The action seems so slick to me. But yeah, I like the old milsurps. They're tough work horses and are fun to collect and shoot. Just wish I still had all of mine. Maybe a few years down the road I'll try to pick up a 1903.

 

[Hermitt]

Something i do for kicks is buy a cheap bag of paintballs and use them as targets out in the yard

 

[necropimp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif From Smith & Smith's classic authoritative reference Small Arms of the World, 10th Revised Edition, at page 622: "The entry of the United States into World War I found this country with a very limited supply of M1903 rifles on hand . . . . and only two plants tooled to produce this rifle. Three large gun plants . . . . were completing large contracts for the British-designed caliber .303 P14 (Enfield) (emphasis added) rifles. . . . The P14 had been originally designed as the P13 for a rimless caliber .280 cartridge; it was not difficult to modify the design to use the U.S. caliber.30 M1906 cartridge. Additional modifications were made to simplify production and to standardize parts between plants and in this manner the U.S. caliber .30 Rifle Model 1917 (or Enfield as it is commonly known) (emphasis added) was born. The Model 1917 is a modified Mauser with frontal locking lugs that c**ks, as the British Lee Enfield (emphasis added) on the forward push of the bolt." If Enfield is good enough for Smith & Smith in referring to the Model 1917, it's good enough for me. I have never heard the Model 1917 referred to as a "Mauser", although it certainly has some characteristics of Paul Mauser's famous and long-lived design as do most modern turnbolt rifles. While the Boers started out fighting the British with 8mm Mausers, most of them were using captured SMLEs by the end of the war for obvious logistical reasons. Americans carrying .30-40 Krags in Cuba were most impressed with the Spanish troops' 7x57mm Mausers, especially the velocity of the bullets. It took two more tries however, to get the U.S. from the .30-40 to the .30-06. I had a Krag years ago, but found it fragilly complex and ballistically unimpressive.

a few notes... i should have rephrased while the rifle can be called an enfield because of where it was originally designed and made it's action design is 99% mauser ... before the model 1898 action all mauser action designs were **** on close (possibly not the 1871 or 1888 models but i haven't actually held either in complete condition (have held some of the "wallhanger grade" boltless rifles) and can't find any info on if it's **** on close or **** on open)

the boers used the model 1895 mauser chambered for 7x57

in fact i've seen a couple of articles (forget where) that were titled "britain's mauser" and "the mauser from enfield" so they have been referred to as mausers before

we've both made some good points and it's obvious why the enfield modified mauser was replaced in both countries that used them... the brits had comparable accuracy with their lee-enfields but the lee-enfields also had a smoother action allowing for better rate of fire and larger magazine capacity

while the US m1903 simply had a lighter weight, smaller profile, and it was cheaper to manufacture

and within the next week i should have another mosin coming in... a 91/59 (91/30 converted to a carbine... many theories exist on why these carbines were made... some say security police reserves, some have suggested a possible cuban connection, i've suggested a zombie invasion of murmansk, it's even been suggested it was as simple as a soviet project to simply create a job for people to do

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by necropimp /img/forum/go_quote.gif the boers used the model 1895 mauser chambered for 7x57

Pakenham's The Boer War, Illustrated Edition, 1993, Random House (which if you have not seen you would probably enjoy; lots of period photographs) states Krueger in 1897 ordered a second rifle purchased for each burgher or 37,000 8mm Mausers and 2 million rounds of 8mm Mauser ammunition before the British blockade was instituted. 7x57mm Mausers were available, and I'm sure they were utilized, but the vast majority ordered and utilized were 8mm Mauser.