[oicdn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif lolwut... Crazy, the photo makes it look like a .32... I wonder if it can be modded to fire all four barrels at once. >.>

Didn't the OG pepperboxes back in the day shoot all 4(or more!) at once? Kinda like being a hand-shotgun with a large spray area, lol.

 

[leftnose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif So far it's never discharged a hollowpoint yet, and I hope that this gun's barrel burns out being used as a hole punch before it fires one.

Well, I'm not sure that's so smart (all due respect). I would suggest shooting a few boxes of those hollowpoints through the gun at the range to make sure it is reliable with them. Nothing would be worse than an ammunition caused malfunction when you need the gun the most.

 

[ronin74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home.

My first 6 are Glaser Safety Slugs, the remaining 9 are FMJ. IIRC hollowpoints are illegal in Kalifornia.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif A win is a win. The Supreme Court rarely overturns itself, so this decision should stand for many years. And it'll take several years for a different case to snake through the appellate level, as well. We'll definitely have a different President by then, possibly a new Justice or two.

2X. The Second Amendment has been beaten and bloodied for the past 25 years, it's great to see the tide finally shifting.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Well, I went to the gun range yesterday with my girlfriend. It was a ton of fun. The first gun we should was a small ruger that had no recoil at all. It was a good intro, but a bit boring.

Then we tried a S&W .38 special and it had a little too much recoil, but seemed very powerful. It seems like it would not be smart to use this gun for personal protection because it seemed less accurate. But that is probably because it was our first time target shooting because on my second round of firing it, my aiming was a lot better.

It was so fun that I want to go back next week. lol The only thing is that it was pretty expensive because we had to rent the gun, buy the ammo, rent the lane, and buy the target sheets. I may have to find somewhere cheaper or get my own gun/ammo. The gun rental was only $6, but the actual ammo was around 3-4 times that depending on the gun.

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Didn't the OG pepperboxes back in the day shoot all 4(or more!) at once? Kinda like being a hand-shotgun with a large spray area, lol.

No, as they had only one lock system and the individual barrels were rotated under the hammer one at a time. There were "duckbill" pistols with several splayed barrels under the same lock mechanism so that they fired as one that were used for "crew control" aboard sailing ships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hollowpoints generally will not go through walls. They flower open when they hit something and are pretty ineffective after that. I keep the USP loaded with SXT hollowpoints at home.

Actually, it depends upon the hollowpoint as with some designs the cavity fills with clothing or plaster and the bullet becomes. essentially, a FMJ penetrator. New designs with cut jackets seem better. YMMV.
Quote:

A win is a win. The Supreme Court rarely overturns itself, so this decision should stand for many years. And it'll take several years for a different case to snake through the appellate level, as well. We'll definitely have a different President by then, possibly a new Justice or two.

Heller is a win in recognizing the Second Amendment provides an individual right and I do not mean to denigrate that, but, mark my words, the invitation to a balancing test for individual rights under (and only under) the Second Amendment that the minority makes will come back to haunt us. That is a legal opinion.
Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif My FNP9 stays loaded with hollowpoints when I'm at home, sitting within fairly easy access--no kids, only cats, who don't have opposable thumbs. =P When I go play with it at the range it loses the hollowpoints in favor of cheap 9mm FMJ which is good for putting holes in paper men. =P

I understand the cost argument, especially these days, of shooting cheaper FMJ ammo at the range, but I don't do it for three reasons. It does not get you rotating your ammunition that is in the pistol and that you will be relying upon. Ammo stability is pretty good, but it is subject to penetrating firearms lubricants and other storage hazards. I first shoot the bullets that were in the gun at the range to see how things would have gone had I needed the use in extremus; both for ammunition reliability and function (in a semi-auto) and for shot placement. Different ammunition in the same caliber will not have the same point of impact because of bullet weight, bullet design, and powder/primer charge. Since my bottom line accuracy requirement is at least headshot accuracy at twenty yards under no pressure (4 inch group at point of aim), I need to know where the working ammo is going to impact. BTW, at my concealed carry recertification course last week, I was high gun with 244 out of 250 possible. Finally, if you train in the most realistic manner possible, including the same ammo, you may have greater assurance that your actual results will resemble your training results. Shoot the same ammo you plan to use defensively.
Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I would hate to be holding onto that thing when it goes off. Modern high performance .35 caliber pistols have quite sharp reports and twisting recoils; I much prefer light load .44RemMag with three times the muzzle energy. How is it for a tactical reload? Since the stats are to plan for multiple aggressive attackers in a lethal force scenario, I guess you might want to hit what you are aiming at. How's the trigger pull? Looks like it has to draw a striker for each barrel. Which barrel are the sights set for? Looks a little like "spray and pray" to anyone from the shot placement school. Firepower is bullets striking center mass.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ronin74 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My first 6 are Glaser Safety Slugs, the remaining 9 are FMJ. IIRC hollowpoints are illegal in Kalifornia.

I got away from the Glasers back in the early 80s; they were very expensive, had a different point of impact than my usual ammunition, were useless against vehicles or light cover, and had problematic functioning in some semi-auto pistols due to the light bullet weight. I could never afford enough of them (at least 250 rounds) to train adequately with and ascertain reliable function. You may want to re-think this.

 

[mrarroyo]

Any of you uses or has used Mag Safe? Mag Safe Ammo - Pre-Fragmented Saftey Ammunition Handcrafted In The USA

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any of you uses or has used Mag Safe?

No, but it looks like a refinement of the Glaser safety load; larger lead birdshot filling a bullet jacket and held in place with a plastic plug and I have several decades of experience with those. Forensic pathologists I have known refer to the wound track left in human flesh by the Glaser "bullet" as "inoperable". BTW, Glasers were introduced to make some inadequate pistol calibers (.25ACP, .32ACP, .32H&R. etc) "seem" more effective. Mag Safe work about the same as Glasers for reducing ricochets and shoot-throughs, but should also have the same problems in terms of physics. The advertised Mag Safe bullet weights are half (or less) of an appropriate jacketed hollowpoint in each caliber. Mag Safe loads have much higher claimed velocities than conventional JHP loads in each caliber. They have much lower sectional densities. They are about ten times more expensive. So:

1. They will shoot to a different point of aim than conventional JHP ammunition in any given pistol (perhaps beyond sight adjustment)
2. Their velocities will be more affected by the available barrel length than conventional JHP ammunition in the caliber
3. They will recoil differently than conventional ammunition, which may affect reliable funtion in semi-automatic firearms (I've seen pistols completely refuse to load or feed Glasers)
4. They will lose velocity more rapidly in flight than conventional JHP of the caliber (gives them a trajectory of a lob wedge)
5. Their penetration against light cover or vehicles will be markedly less than conventional JHP ammunition of the caliber
6. They will probably have higher flash and report than conventional JHP loads in the caliber
7. They will be too costly for effective regular practice

I guess I would view them also as a specialty ammunition for particular narrow "up close" purposes (ie. assassination) rather than an effective general purpose self defense load.

 

[ronin74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got away from the Glasers back in the early 80s; they were very expensive, had a different point of impact than my usual ammunition, were useless against vehicles or light cover, and had problematic functioning in some semi-auto pistols due to the light bullet weight. I could never afford enough of them (at least 250 rounds) to train adequately with and ascertain reliable function. You may want to re-think this.

Old Pa,

Thank you for the advice, but I think the Glasers will do just fine for it's intended purpose; close quarters, confined space, home protection. No ricochets, no strays.

 

[Old Pa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronin74 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you for the advice, but I think the Glasers will do just fine for it's intended purpose; close quarters, confined space, home protection. No ricochets, no strays.

To each his own. I, myself, have never experienced or thought I would have quite that much control over the circumstances of a self defense situation involving lethal force. BTW, since lethal force exercises are these days most commonly accompanied by later criminal and/or civil prosecutions, even if successful in the self defense encounter, I would not like to explain to a civil jury in a wrongful death action my particular choice of fragmenting projectile ammunition before the bereaved widow(s), kiddies, and other surviving relations.

But what do I know?

 

[number1sixerfan]

Going back to the range tomorrow. Going to try out a glock .40 and 9mm. Revolvers last time, pistols this time.

I really enjoyed watching myself get even incrementally better while practicing. This may well turn into a hobby.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, but it looks like a refinement of the Glaser safety load; larger lead birdshot filling a bullet jacket and held in place with a plastic plug and I have several decades of experience with those. Forensic pathologists I have known refer to the wound track left in human flesh by the Glaser "bullet" as "inoperable". BTW, Glasers were introduced to make some inadequate pistol calibers (.25ACP, .32ACP, .32H&R. etc) "seem" more effective. Mag Safe work about the same as Glasers for reducing ricochets and shoot-throughs, but should also have the same problems in terms of physics. The advertised Mag Safe bullet weights are half (or less) of an appropriate jacketed hollowpoint in each caliber. Mag Safe loads have much higher claimed velocities than conventional JHP loads in each caliber. They have much lower sectional densities. They are about ten times more expensive. So: They will shoot to a different point of aim than conventional JHP ammunition in any given pistol (perhaps beyond sight adjustment) Their velocities will be more affected by the available barrel length than conventional JHP ammunition in the caliber They will recoil differently than conventional ammunition, which may affect reliable funtion in semi-automatic firearms (I've seen pistols completely refuse to load or feed Glasers) They will lose velocity more rapidly in flight than conventional JHP of the caliber (gives them a trajectory of a lob wedge) Their penetration against light cover or vehicles will be markedly less than conventional JHP ammunition of the caliber They will probably have higher flash and report than conventional JHP loads in the caliber They will be too costly for effective regular practice I guess I would view them also as a specialty ammunition for particular narrow "up close" purposes (ie. assassination) rather than an effective general purpose self defense load.

+1, glasers and MagSafes have been shown to be unable to achieve the depths in ballistic gelatin to pass the FBI's test. If you read Fackler, et al, the 2 ways to take someone down are:

1) Blood Loss - make the hole big but unless you hit an artery may take some time during which they can kill you.

2) CNS hit - Fastest way to bring them down and the reason for the FBI's recommendation. The FBI guidelines are based on the Miami shootout where a bad guy managed to shoot a number of agents to ribbons after a bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough to hit his heart allowing him to continue on his rampage.

 

[braillediver]

I'm lusting for one of these.

Sig X5 L1

Here's the P229 Sport with a Scott Cook Lochsa.

Mitch

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif +1, glasers and MagSafes have been shown to be unable to achieve the depths in ballistic gelatin to pass the FBI's test. If you read Fackler, et al, the 2 ways to take someone down are: 1) Blood Loss - make the hole big but unless you hit an artery may take some time during which they can kill you. 2) CNS hit - Fastest way to bring them down and the reason for the FBI's recommendation. The FBI guidelines are based on the Miami shootout where a bad guy managed to shoot a number of agents to ribbons after a bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough to hit his heart allowing him to continue on his rampage.

Yep. Even worse, they don't even perform like you'd expect.

Glaser through drywall.

Compare to #4 buck and .45 ACP. Same drywall penetration as #4 buck, marginally less than .45 ACP. Both of these will do the FBI's 12" while the Glaser will not. Also see performance after going through normal drywall construction. It seems that the fragmenting jacket won't fragment upon hitting something as soft as drywall, instead it'll impact and prevent the projectile from fragmenting at all.

The only thing it really helps with is target overpenetration, but light, fast hollowpoints will do the same with lower price and better penetration.

 

[gilency]

Went to the desert last weekend with my kids and we had enough guns to take down a city hall (just kidding). Le me see: a Tommy gun, SKS, a bunch of shotguns, all kinds of hand guns, from a 25 Browning "purse" gun, to 22's, 38, 45's etc. and a few others. This place had all kind of junk to shoot at, from a bowling pin to an old car fuel tank. Plus we did skeet shooting. Man, we had fun!

 

[synaesthetic]

It's been a while since I took the FNP9 to the range. I should do it, but bills have been so crushing recently I had to actually sell something audio-related to buy more audio-related things. Usually I can accumulate. =P

It's also kind of hard to take a gun to the range when you don't own a car, and you can't take weapons on public transport. I don't even have a conceal carry permit since I haven't been in OK long enough to be considered a resident.

Edit: I guess I could lock it in the soft bag and stuff it in my satchel, but even so the buses don't exactly go to the boonies where the range is...