[azkkr]

Some time ago I had a Graham Slee amp that played well with whatever Grados I had at the time. They're out of the UK, so maybe you can read up on them. I did not own the ps2000e at that time though.
I currently own the woo audio WA8 and I'm really pleased with it. It is just perfect for my needs and it has effectively stop me from looking at amps and dacs so I can't recommend it enough.

Will look into Graham Slee, thank you! Definitely keen to hear the WA8 with PS2000e and GS3000e and it does add great convenience with its 'portability'. Do you still have the PS2000e and use it with WA8? Cheers!

 

[wormsdriver]

Will look into Graham Slee, thank you! Definitely keen to hear the WA8 with PS2000e and GS3000e and it does add great convenience with its 'portability'. Do you still have the PS2000e and use it with WA8? Cheers!

Nope. I never got to hear that combo unfortunately as I sold the ps2000e way before I bought the woo.

 

[azkkr]

Nope. I never got to hear that combo unfortunately as I sold the ps2000e way before I bought the woo.

Got it, thanks!

 

[Joaquin Dinero]

don't forget to play your FLACs a few times to burn in the data, too. It might be helpful to open and close Foobar for a little while just to burn in the software.

EDIT: Let me explain, in some detail, why burn-in makes no sense.

For one, the moving parts here aren't moving all that much. It's fairly tiny motions. Any changes would be unbelievably minuscule. Burn-in was a thing on oooooold loudspeakers that had really stiff coils and cones that tended to go "tight" after they'd been sitting around for a while, and even then the "burn-in" was maybe 30 minutes.

For two, any of aforementioned changes wouldn't be some concrete motion from starting point A to finishing point B. If the moving parts in a headphone, or anything else for that matter, experience "loosening up" of any sort, it would be a continual gradient like a pair of shoes slowly wearing out. They wouldn't achieve their "final burning-in point," they'd keep on burning in forever, which would mean they are perpetually in a state of changing, which would mean they're very poorly made.

For three, a headphone company that sends its headphones out sounding sub-optimal would be absolutely idiotic because it would mean tons of customers returning them since they don't sound as good as they're "supposed to." Especially for companies like Grado, where their products are hand-made and in small quantities for certain lines, if burn-in existed, they would be absolute morons if they didn't do it before they sent them out.

For four, Audeze (among others) has stated on their website that they do burn in their headphones prior to shipping, and I've still seen people claiming they change.

For five, if burn-in existed, it would also REVERT. Eventually all those parts would go stiff from disuse, meaning they'd need to be burned-in again like re-seasoning a pan that's been in storage for too long.

For six, finally, everyone always says that burn-in magically fixes whatever woes they initially had. If someone thought they were too bass-light, they say the bass opens up. If they thought it was too loose, they'll say it tightens. Was the treble too sharp? Well burn-in made it relax. Was the treble too soft? Don't worry, burning 'em in will make the treble get more detailed. Soundstage? Always gets better. Literally whatever the listener wants to hear from their headphone, they will always say improves with burn-in. I have never, once, seen someone go "well the bass was great at first but after a month it got even bigger and now I hate it." In 100% of cases where people insist burn-in exists, the quality that they state happened as a result of burn-in is them liking the headphone more.

You know, like what would happen after listening to a headphone for a month and acclimating to its sound.

Whew. There. My "bitch about burn-in" quota is taken care of for the month.

The thing about the whole burn in "debate" is that it's not really something that should be subjective. The claim about burn in is that the driver performance actually changes with use. This either happens, or it doesn't. It would easily be verifiable with measurements.

Take brand new headphones out of their box

Hook them up to measurement rig.

Play music or test tones or whatever folks use continuously through them for "burn in" period, taking measurements intermittently.

Are the measurements changing over the time period? Then there's your burn in effect.

Are they static? No burn in.

I know which side I'd put my money on but it doesn't matter what I or any of us think we're hearing. The driver performance changes with use, or it doesn't. Test it and find out.

 

[funkymartyn]

Got it, thanks!

How about the new valve amp just released by xduoo. One with one valve , one with two. Around £100. Good reviews on YouTube ...Inc Zeus reviews ...

 

[gimmeheadroom]

There is burn in, but it's in the brain. The more time you spend with gear the more you notice about it just like when you read a book or see a movie a hundred times. You notice a lot more than you did the first time.

Probably there is some small degree of adjustment on anything mechanical though. Not worth going to war over it!

 

[ACOC0NUT]

There's not really a question of do drivers change over time. They do. If they didn't then no headphone would ever break after years of use. For it to go from fully functional to broken requires a physical change.

The only question is if these physical changes over time cause any difference in sound. This is hard to "measure" since there is no way I'm aware of to measure things like soundstage, imaging, instrument separation, etc and not every headphone changes in any significant way with burn-in/break-in.

With my X00 purple hearts, at first the bass was just a bit muddy. For comfort reasons I swapped the pads to ZMF Ori lambskins and used them like that for about 2 months. I then swapped back to the stock pads and that slight muddyness was gone along with some other small differences.

The stock pads didn't break in because I wasn't using them. My brain didn't just get used to the sound since the Ori pads actually reduce the bass. I didn't change amps or dacs at all. I did no other mods to the headphone at all. The only factor was the time they had been used, meaning there was a change in the sound after X hours of use.

Then there's my 58X jubilee which I've had for years and can't say there has been any real change.

 

[azkkr]

How about the new valve amp just released by xduoo. One with one valve , one with two. Around £100. Good reviews on YouTube ...Inc Zeus reviews ...

Definitely worth a look, cheers!

 

[azkkr]

How about the new valve amp just released by xduoo. One with one valve , one with two. Around £100. Good reviews on YouTube ...Inc Zeus reviews ...

You mean the Xduoo TA-20?

 

[SomeGuyDude]

You again in your never-ending cruise against something that does not effect you negatively at all and does not do any harm to anyone. Why do you do it? Feeling good to 'know better'?

All i can say is i got 4 Grados within the last 9 months and they all changed their sound characteristics to the better and more refined after 150-200 hours.

I think it's good to know that for people who didn't have a Grado before so they know things will improve with time if they are not happy with its sound initially.

Because people like you cause problems in the hobby by giving bad, false, dishonest "advice". I am absolutely on a "cruise" to keep this hobby honest. Not to peddle in snake oil and lies.

But you proved me right. The burn in always "improves" sound regardless of what your problem was. If burn-in existed, it would have a consistent "direction," but it never does. People like you constantly insist that whatever the woes are on a headphone, burn-in will always fix it. When people say a headphone is too bassy, burn-in will "tighten it up." Well that's weird, because what if someone LIKES extra bass? Does that mean the burn-in will make them like the headphone less? It should, but I have NEVER seen that happen. I have never, once, in my entire existence in this hobby, seen someone go "ugh this headphone was great out of the box but after a month the bass went away."

I'm also a lifter, have been for a long time. Burn in, cable nonsense, 24/192, this is all the audio equivalent of bro-science and worthless supplements. It's people going around talking about making their "inner pecs" grow and how this or that powder totally put 50lb on their deadlift when anyone actually looking critically (and studying the mechanics behind it) knows there is 100% no way that this is real, but the answer is always "well I experienced it!!"

No you didn't. If I took all 4 of your Grados and replaced them with brand-new out of the box models you would not be able to hear a difference. Over the course of 9 months, your ears adjusted which made you like them more. Period. And that's what you should be telling people. If you don't like the sound of your Grado when you first buy it, give it a while to acclimate, because they do sound quite different to other headphones, but they won't change. You will.

Here's a better example: imagine I have a tomato garden because I wanna start liking tomatoes. I take a bite of a tomato and I don't like it. A gardener friend says "your soil needs time to settle into growing tomatoes, give it a few crops and they'll taste better," so for the next little while I keep eating tomatoes out of my garden and by the next year I love them. What happened? Did my tomato garden "burn in," or my tastes shift because I got used to tomatoes?

I hate doing this over and over, but to me it's not just an argument. It's trying to recalibrate the discussion to benefit less-experienced members who are going to be misled by lies. That's not an unimportant distinction to me. I don't want to see people wasting money by keeping headphones past the return-policy date and being stuck with them because someone on the internet insisted that they would "burn-in" and sound different. I don't want to see people throwing money away thanks to bad advice. I want to see people get help at finding the best products for them and not lose money due to faux-science.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

There's not really a question of do drivers change over time. They do. If they didn't then no headphone would ever break after years of use. For it to go from fully functional to broken requires a physical change.

Yes, but have you ever noticed the "break" is always sudden and immediate? Show me a headphone that's ever "degraded" to having a really weird and wonky sound and I'll agree with you. I don't mean like "the left driver went out," I mean "the left driver suddenly has really loose and flabby bass and the right driver doesn't play treble anymore."

That's how you know this is just crap. You can find vintage headphones from the 1970s that still sound like they did back then. For what you're talking about to be related to the concept of "burn-in," then if you played your headphones 24/7 for a year, at the end of it they'd have this really weird sound from the cone/motor/coil having so much wear and tear it can't maintain structural integrity.

I mean this genuinely. Find me any example of someone who had a pair of headphones for 5-10 years and said that the sound of them had gradually degraded over that time, because I've never heard it. Meanwhile I know of people who have had a pair of Senn HD580 or HD650 for 20 years and never replaced them. If burn-in existed, after 2 decades those speakers would be so worn out they barely work right. But that never happens. Sometimes they break, but it's always "made sound, don't make sound." Which tells you that the failure point is not where you think it is.

If burn-in was real, people would INSIST not to buy vintage used headphones, because they've been used so much those speakers won't sound right anymore. People hunting for Joseph Grado HP1000 or buying discontinued models would be getting headphones that sound wrong because they've been used so much they're breaking down and won't sound like they should. But we all know that ain't true. People on here love getting those old discontinued models because they still sound awesome. Why do they still sound awesome? Because they ain't wearing out like that.

 

[544322]

Yes, but have you ever noticed the "break" is always sudden and immediate? Show me a headphone that's ever "degraded" to having a really weird and wonky sound and I'll agree with you. I don't mean like "the left driver went out," I mean "the left driver suddenly has really loose and flabby bass and the right driver doesn't play treble anymore."

That's how you know this is just crap. You can find vintage headphones from the 1970s that still sound like they did back then. For what you're talking about to be related to the concept of "burn-in," then if you played your headphones 24/7 for a year, at the end of it they'd have this really weird sound from the cone/motor/coil having so much wear and tear it can't maintain structural integrity.

I mean this genuinely. Find me any example of someone who had a pair of headphones for 5-10 years and said that the sound of them had gradually degraded over that time, because I've never heard it. Meanwhile I know of people who have had a pair of Senn HD580 or HD650 for 20 years and never replaced them. If burn-in existed, after 2 decades those speakers would be so worn out they barely work right. But that never happens. Sometimes they break, but it's always "made sound, don't make sound." Which tells you that the failure point is not where you think it is.

If burn-in was real, people would INSIST not to buy vintage used headphones, because they've been used so much those speakers won't sound right anymore. People hunting for Joseph Grado HP1000 or buying discontinued models would be getting headphones that sound wrong because they've been used so much they're breaking down and won't sound like they should. But we all know that ain't true. People on here love getting those old discontinued models because they still sound awesome. Why do they still sound awesome? Because they ain't wearing out like that.

Not worth talking about that with a grinch like you. You want to be right and better than others, that's all. I put you on ignore for my peace of mind, please do the same with me. You can talk about me as an example of how irrational "snake oil believers" are and prove yourself right. Thank you.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Not worth talking about that with a grinch like you. You want to be right and better than others, that's all. I put you on ignore for my peace of mind, please do the same with me. You can talk about me as an example of how irrational "snake oil believers" are and prove yourself right. Thank you.

I want everyone to look at this post right here and understand that this is the problem with snake oil peddlers and bro-science acolytes. They won't listen to reason, won't accept arguments, and will throw a tantrum when contradicted. This is why I argue with them as I do, because I need it to be made visible for others that we're dealing with people who will cost you, and others, money if you let yourself get snookered by what they're claiming. Rather than accepting that I argue for the reason I explicitly state I do (because I'm trying to help steer the ship away from icebergs), he just cries and whines at me like I'm being mean for no reason other than self-satisfaction. If I wanted to feel better, I'd just ignore all of this and smugly sit off to my side while silently thinking I'm awesome. I wouldn't be wasting time writing long diatribes for the purpose of explaining things to others.

This hobby can be expensive, it can be time-consuming, and it can feel overwhelming. Please do your best not to make it worse by falling into the audio equivalent of flat-earth conspiracies.

Buy your Grado, they sound awesome. If you don't think they sound right, give your brain time to adjust. If you buy used, don't worry because they aren't going to sound different than a new set. If you buy a Grado and think they REALLY sound wrong, and you're waiting for them to "burn in" and sound different, just send them back. It's okay. Really. There might be another model that they have that's more to your liking, they might not. Wasting your resources chasing dragons is only going to leave you in a worse mood for it, and this hobby shouldn't be about that.

 

[elvergun]

Because people like you cause problems in the hobby by giving bad, false, dishonest "advice". I am absolutely on a "cruise" to keep this hobby honest. Not to peddle in snake oil and lies.

I've been to Dan Clark's (Mr. Speakers) shop here in San Diego. He was showing me around the place when we walked into a room full of drivers hanging there playing pink noise. I asked Dan what that was all about and he informed me that it was the "burn-in room".

Was he peddling snake oil and lying to me? Perhaps. Is he an idiot for believing in burn-in? Perhaps. Does Dan Clark know a little more about headphones than you do? Hmm. Would Dan's headphones have sounded exactly the same if he had not burned them in before shipping them out? Perhaps.

Do I believe in burn-in? I'm not sure. I think I've heard a slight difference with some of the headphones I purchased.

There have been some models which did not change at all after hours of use. Could these models have been put through a burn-in process in house? Perhaps. I don't know.

It could be that burn-in is a completely imagined phenomenon -- I think that is definitely a possibility. I like to believe in fairy tales and I choose to believe in headphone burn-in (it makes buying a new headphone even more fun). Am I an idiot for choosing to believe in burn-in? Perhaps. Do I give a schiit about what you might think because I believe in burn-in? No, not at all.

Do we care that you are on crusade keep this hobby honest and prove that burn-in is not real? No. Go ahead and knock yourself out.

The burn in always "improves" sound regardless of what your problem was.

The "improvement" is not supposed to be a night and day affair. If you like a headphone signature, you might like it a little more after burn-in. If you don't like that signature you will still not like it after the burn-in period. Burn-in will not change the signature of a headphone. A bass cannon will still be a bass cannon after the burn-in period...and an anemic headphone will never become a bass cannon after hundreds of hours of use.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

words

I find myself amused by people who will write long and angry diatribes at me while insisting they don't care what I think. You do care, and that's fine. This is a passionate hobby. Just be honest about it.