Grace m902 & Sennheiser 650 combination

[Hippo99]

This week I have a Grace m902 DAC-headphone amplifier at home to test it out with my Sennheiser 650 headphone. First sound impressions with digital inputs are mixed, the soundstage over the phones has an enormous resolution and picking out any subtle detais on SACD and CD recordings is not a problem whatsoever. However on the other hand unfortunately it lacks a good feeling of musicality, like e.g. that can be obtained with the Musical Fidelity X-Can series headphone amps. You can also say that the Grace 902 sounds analytically, transistor-like, ruthlessly revealing any type of distortion in the recording.

In contrast to the Grace 902 the bottom midrange on the X-cans sounds more compressed and lacks refinement in the treble region, but at least it makes it more enjoyable to listen too over longer periods of time. The extra bloom of the tube circuitry certainly leads to more rhytmic drive in the music with a better appreciation of a live atmosphere when side-by-side compared. In my feeling the Grace 902 is characterized by the opposite sound, which is more or less tilted in equalisation towards the upper treble range. For that reason one already tends to set the relative listening volume significantly lower on the Grace for comfort, and therefore leading to an apparent decrease in dynamics of the music. The same observations can be made for the even more analytically sounding analog line input and line output, perhaps not the best choice in musicality. So, my first impression is that the Grace 902 is more geared towards studio users, and not directly to get a warm sound in high-end hifi installations.

Do other users have similar experiences with the Grace 902 and 901 units, or is this mianly due to lack of synergy between electronic components and the headphone. My previous Sennheiser 580 seems to match better with the Grace 902, but the HD580 is ofcourse not up at the same level as the newer 650 series.

Any recommendations for a more suitable 192 kHz DAC capable - headphone amp combination besides the Benchmark DAC1 (which by the way I can try out next week) are welcome. Or does a replacement cable for the 650 or some other electronic impedance match can do wonders to take away most of the edgy sound ?

Equipment:
Marantz8400 with DVDupgrades 6-channel S/PDIF AES XLR board -->
AES input Grace m902 --> Sennheiser HD650.

and/or
Marantz8400 analog output --> Analog input Grace m902 --> Sennheiser HD650

 

[Veto]

I can't say I hear the same as you do, maybe because I don't use the DAC because that doesn't work for SACD/DVDA.

IMO the grace (901) is not geared towards the upper freq range but is
very balanced. With the 650 maybe a bit to balanced (dull?), for the sa5000 it is the best amp I have (although I don't have all that much experience

)
I can see that it is described as typical transistor in that it is analytical.
It is I guess.
Not a bad thing in my book.
I don't know if there are major differences in the amp department between the 901 & 902.


Veto

 

[overlunge]

Hi Hippo99,

I have been using m902 for about a week now. For the first few days the sound was as you described, but listen to it now, only the amp section remain 'hard' sounding...

Is your unit used, and what interconnect are you using with them?


Overlunge

 

[Hippo99]

In reply to my first message about the sound qualities of the Grace 902 amplifier I have to add a correcting remark. The edginess of the sound is already strongly reduced, after keeping the Grace 902 powered on for one-and-half day. I'm afraid the Grace 902 model, which was sent to me on trial for a week, is not an already burnt-in demo unit, but a fresh factory one.

Overlunge: this seems in line with you observations about a new Grace 902, it may take time to get the sound stabilized. Note that I am going to use the Grace mainly as "DA-headphone amp and not primarily for its analog inputs. The Grace is meant for monitoring own digital recordings, but also for listening to my music collection on CD, DVD-A and SACD. Analog cables between the Marantz universal player and the Grace were by the way MITerminator 5. Still can try Harmonic Technologies cinch cables that I have here to see if that makes an improvement.

Take home message: better not to send a message to the forum too quickly. Patience is a virtue. Nevertheless, next week I will try out the Benchmark DAC-1 together with the Grace 902 side-by-side to compare the two.

 

[mjg]

grace 901 is my amp/dac.

I like the punchy midbass and a bit of treble emphasis. It does my grados fine, as well ad my hd600s.

Coming from an HR2, it was a nice change, i've heard much better amps of course, but it's agreeable with most phones i've tried with it, and i wouldn't characterise it as harsh in anyway, maybe depending on what kind of cans you use...

I do not find it fatiguing or innaccurate sounding, predominately listen to rock, house, and acid jazz with my computer setup.

Anyhow, i did have the benchmark dac1 for a very long time one of the older units, never tried a new one. I have to say, if you get used to the grace quality of headphone amp, the benchmarks amp circuitry wont satisfy you.. Though the dac is oft considered superior, which i probablly agree with, (havent side by sided them) the amp element alone, makes the grace a really great option. I haven't heard the 902, but if the price was down to earth i'd take a look at it.

Not sure what you mean by edgey sound, but if your considering the 650s bright in anyway, i guess the grace sound might not be for you.

The silver cables will take a long while to break in, longer then your audition, but they might make the problem appear to be worse.

 

[WilCox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo99 Any recommendations for a more suitable 192 kHz DAC capable - headphone amp combination besides the Benchmark DAC1 (which by the way I can try out next week) are welcome. Or does a replacement cable for the 650 or some other electronic impedance match can do wonders to take away most of the edgy sound ?HD650

I use a Grace m902 through a 10' Cardas with my HD650's and don't find the sound overly analytical at all for my musical tastes. The Cardas may be worth auditioning, but I don't think it will change the sound away from the analytical side.

Another DAC/headphone amp to consider is the Apogee Mini-DAC. Right now, I am listening to the Apogee more than the Grace as I find the Apogee to provide a greater sense of "life" to the presentation. Some well-recorded CD's are eerie in their lifelike presentation though the Apogee. If I didn't know better, I would think that they designed in a transfer function that duplicates the playback artifacts from a vinyl repoduction system (without the ticks, pops and surface noise, of course). That's the only other format that I've heard that can (at times) sound "almost real".

 

[Edwood]

The Grace m902, like the 901, is a better amp than dac.

For the HD650's, I preferred the Benchmark DAC1.

I like the m902's precise imaging, tracking, and the insane digital stepper. THe m902 truly is the Swiss Army Knife of headphone amps.

-Ed

 

[ken36]

Outstanding thread. Thanks a lot.

 

[Hippo99]

Today I have tried some interesting combinations of equipment, whereby switching one button a direct comparison can be made between the differences in signature sound of the connected equipment. The feed is a digital 24 bit / 88.2 kHz source signal from a RME Digiface soundcard. The two signals are distributed simultaneously to both an older Musical Fidelity X24K DA converter and the new Grace m902 I have here on trial. Volume settings are digitally adjusted to correct for small volume changes between the different inputs.

Routing:
- Musical Fidelity X24K fed with S/PDIF signal from computer to the analog in of the Grace m902.
- Grace m902 fed with AES digital (exactly same source as for the S/PDIF signal).
- Analog output Grace m902 to analog input Musical Fidelity Xcans as alternative route.

Here my preference of best overall sound for playback over Sennheiser 650 headphones using a well-known recording I have recorded myself of soprano alt & piano. The digital recording is made with two DPA 4006 microphones using van den Hul "The Second" microphone cabling.

Scenario of best sound (in sequential order):
1. S/PDIF input X24K --> Grace 902 analog in --> HD650
2. AES input Grace 902 --> analog out Grace 902 --> Xcans --> HD650
3. AES input Grace 902 --> HD650

Interesting to hear the subtle differences in sound, but to my ears one still has to compensate somewhere in the reproduction chain for the electronic glare of the Grace electronics, both in the DAC and in the analog path.

Stepping from scenario 3 to 1, one can really hear the compensating effect of the Musical Fidelity X24K electronics. The stereo image becomes less wide, most likely caused by the earlier generation of DA converters, but ... interestingly the final sound in scenario 1 turns out significantly fuller by the fact that the X24K converter tilts the frequency balance towards the high bass range (200-400 Hz). The side effect of the correction is that by emphasizing this spectral region of the sound you also hear relatively more of the natural acoustics, giving the illusion of more ambience in the recording and therefore a warmer sound with better fidelity. It does not necessarily mean that combination 1 is the most accurate presentation on its own, but actually translates better to what one (expects to) hear in the case when you were present live at the concert. The MF treated sound of scenario 1 also translates better to playback over loudspeakers.

Scenario 2 leads exactly to the same synergistic results, only in another way.
However leaving out the Grace out entirely and connecting the X24K and Xcans directly becomes a disappointing experience again, mainly due to the lack of refinement in musical details.

Ofcourse all these observations rely on one particular recording. But using a larger range of other styles of music and CD's, I can say that setup 1 still holds up for me until now. On heavily compressed pop music things are different, here scenario 3 turns out a winning combination, simply because the EQ'ed sound complements better with the characteristics of the less punchy sounding all Grace playback chain.

Please do not think that I'm considering the Grace 902 a completely inferior product, not at all. The very precise volume steps (200 in total), the impeccable volume balance between L & R channels, and the nicely implemented crossfeed circuit have already earned a lot of bonus points. Although it would be nice to know which electronic components have been used in the 902.

Conclusion to bring in the discussion: selection of hi-fi equipment still remains difficult and a very subjective choice to say the least.

 

[Hippo99]

To conclude my comparison between the Benchmark DAC-1 and Grace m902 here are my final impressions. Music source in all the comparisons is the digital output of a professional Marantz CD player.

The two DAC/headphone amplifiers have been compared side-by-side mainly listened by Sennheiser 650 headphones. First conclusion is that the DA converter of the Benchmark is much superior relative to the Grace 902 DA converter. Both when listened by headphones and played back over active PMC loudspeakers.

In the beginning we made the mistake not to properly warm up the Grace to its operating temperature. Switching from one converter to the other came as quite a shock, what an unbelieveble difference in sound between the DAC's. This was not a subtle effect at all. The Grace simply sounds two-dimensional, whereas switching to the Benchmark suddenly all instruments snap into focus, increasing the stereo depth by a factor or two, together with larger-than-life dynamics. Things for the Grace improve considerably after two hours of warming up, but in the end there is no actual comparison between the DA converter of the DAC-1 and the Grace 902. Especially when listened over loudspeakers the DAC-1 literally lifts a veil off the music, while the Grace DA converter sounds congested and transistor-like in comparison, mudding up many details which really become quite apparent when played over the DAC-1.

Interestingly, when listening over the analog headphone amp the preferences are just reversed. The headphone amp of the Grace m902 sounds more smooth and refined, and importantly having a more three-dimensional soundstage than the DAC-1 headphone amp. The headphone amp of the DAC-1 still sounds very open in the important midrange area, but begins to sound unrefined and rather artificial bright in the upper treble frequencies. In the end the most convincing overall sound for playback over the Sennheiser headphones is to take the best individual properties of the two pieces of equipment, namely by combining the clean analog path of the Grace and the superior converter technology of the Benchmark.

In other words the following route:
Dig input DAC-1 --> DAC-1 "fixed" balanced analog out --> Grace m902 balanced analog in --> headphone output --> Sennheiser HD650

That's what I call good sound !
Ofcourse that sets you back approximately ~2900 Euros (1000 Euro for the DAC-1 and 1900 Euro for the m902), excluding the price of some good balanced cables. Instead, I try now to follow the cheaper route of improving the analog headamp circuitry of the DAC-1 by modding first (cost approx. 600 euro).

 

[Jeff Wong]

I own both the Grace 901 & m902 and have found the built-in DACs less than satisfactory; the 901 DAC is especially grainy sounding. However, using an external DAC with either Sennheiser 600s or 650s (with Equinox cable), I've been rather pleased. The more purist side of me feels guilty using the crossfeed of the m902, but I find it is subtle enough and creates a slight tonal shift that mellows the sound and makes for less fatiguing listening over the course of an evening.

 

[overlunge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Wong However, using an external DAC with either Sennheiser 600s or 650s (with Equinox cable), I've been rather pleased.

Do you mean Grace as an external DAC or another DAC to go into Grace's amp section?


Overlunge

 

[Jeff Wong]

Transport > Jitter reduction > DAC > Grace > Headphones