Goldpoint SA2X - Nobsound NS-05P passive attenuator comparison technical measurements
Feb 5, 2019 at 12:04 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

atomicbob

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Goldpoint SA2X - Nobsound NS-05P passive attenuator comparison technical measurements

Standard Prologue
If you are unfamiliar with audio measurements please use a search engine with the query:
"audio measurements" or "audio measurement handbook"
Look for publications by Richard C. Cabot and also by Bob Metzler, both from Audio Precision. There are other useful publications as well. These will provide basic knowledge.
Interpretation of the following measurements is usually beyond the scope of technical measurements posts. This post will be somewhat of an exception.

The data presented were collected as follows:
1. PrismSound dScope III, picoscope 5243B
2. Balanced cables Canare L-4E6S starquad and Belden 1800F with Neutrik XLR connectors
3. Single Ended cables Audioblast HQ-1 1.5 ft with Rean RCA connectors or RG6 with BNC connectors
4. 75R RCA to BNC adapters as necessary
5. Vaunix Lab Brick USB hub for measurement equipment
6. Audioquest Forest and Schiit Pyst USB cables used for measurement equipment
7. 14 and 16 AWG sheilded power cables used

All testing performed at +20 dBu input and 20 dB attenuation unless otherwise noted.


Post table of contents
1. Introduction and Background
2. Select Measurement Comparisons
3. Square Wave Response and Channel Imbalance
4. Frequency Response vs Attenuation
5. Frequency Response vs cable type and length


Introduction
The BIG QUESTION: will the NS-05P at $50 provide similar performance to an SA1X which is 10x $$$?
The BIG ANSWER: it depends.

Unsatisfying for TL;DR but unfortunately this is the correct answer. With optimal setup conditions both will perform similarly. But when the setup is more challenging, serious shortcomings of the NS-05P are revealed.

SA2X and SA1X employ the same stepped attenuator. The SA2X has two inputs and an input selector switch. I'm using the SA2X for this comparison as it was within easy reach when I began this evaluation exercise. All performance assessments apply equally to the SA1X.


Background

Most amplifiers, both speaker and headphone have the following basic block diagram:

00 20190110 Typical Amp block diagram.png


Output level is controlled by a potentiometer attenuating input signals before sending to a fixed gain amplification block. In essence nearly all amplifiers have a passive attenuator.

When a high output signal source is applied to an amplifier designed for a much lower input signal level, the amp volume control will often need to provide large attenuation with the volume knob at the minimum extremes. Many potentiometers will change levels greatly with little movement on the knob and have increased channel imbalance issues at this extreme operation. One solution involves attenuating the hot signal source with an external passive attenuator allowing the internal potentiometer to operate in a more favorable performance range.

01 20190110 Typical Amp block diagram + ext passive attenuator.png


An external passive attenuator (or passive preamp) can provide the desired level match with minimal signal degradation, but it is important to know limitations and constraints. One extremely important consideration is the distributed capacitance of the interconnecting cable between the output of the attenuator and input of the amp. The connection forms a simple RC low pass filter. Such a filter has potential to roll off high frequencies. Such constraints will be explored while comparing measured performance of two passive attenuators.

Very important design differences between SA2X and NS-05P
SA2X 10K ohm stepped attenuator, 4 gang switch with precision low noise resistors
NS-05P 50K ohm potentiometer, ALPS 4 gang


Picture of the Audio Lab setup for SA2X and NS-05P measurements and listening

02 DSC_0017_F13_small.jpg

RME ADI-2 Pro reference output set to +24dBu for listening evaluation
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 12:05 PM Post #2 of 13
Select Measurement Comparisons

Frequency response with 20 dB attenuation from +20 dBu

SA2X
10 SA2X G2_L1T2_1_B.png


NS-05P
11 NS-05P G2_L1T2_1_B.png

SA2X has negligable high frequency roll off while NS-05P drops approximately 0.65 dB at 20 KHz.


Gain linearity with 20 dB attenuation from +20 dBu

SA2X
12 SA2X G2_L1T3_1_A.png


NS-05P
13 NS-05P G2_L1T3_1_A.png

NS-05P gain linearity deteriorates approximately 6 to 7 dB higher than SA2X


Crosstalk with 20 dB attenuation from +20 dBu

SA2X
14 SA2X G2_L1T11_1.png


NS-05P
15 NS-05P G2_L1T11_1.png

Really no contest here. SA2X has far superior (lower) crosstalk isolation


Residual noise with 20 dB attenuation from +20 dBu

SA2X
16 SA2X FFT_2_L1T16_1_A.png


NS-05P
17 NS-05P FFT_2_L1T16_1_A.png

NS-05P is more susceptible to external mains hum and demonstrates higher residual noise
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 12:05 PM Post #3 of 13
Square Wave Response and Channel Imbalance

NS-05P square wave 20 Hz 2 Vpp 10 mS / div 10K load 100 KHz measurement BW 20 dB attenuation
20 20190109 SigGen NS-05P 20 Hz square 2000mVpp input 20 dB atten 10mS div 100KHz filter.png

Same low frequency response as any other potentiometer or stepped attenuator.

NS-05P 20 Hz square 2000mVpp input 20 dB atten 500nS div 20 MHz filter
21 20190109 SigGen NS-05P 20 Hz square 2000mVpp input 20 dB atten 500nS div 20 MHz filtr-BW calc.png

NS-05P square wave 20 Hz 2 Vpp 500 nS / div 10K load 5 MHz measurement BW 20 dB attenuation

Bandwidth estimation: BW (MHz) = 0.35 / RT (mS)
Where RT = 10 to 90% Rise Time
0.35 / 1.986 uS = 0.176 MHz

SA1X 20 Hz square 2000mVpp input 26 dB atten 200nS div 10MHz filter
22 20181117 SigGen SA1X 20 Hz square 2000mVpp input 26 dB atten 200nS div 10MHz filter - BW calc.png

SA1X square wave 20 Hz 2 Vpp 200 nS / div 10K load 5 MHz measurement BW 26 dB attenuation

Bandwidth estimation: BW (MHz) = 0.35 / RT (mS)
Where RT = 10 to 90% Rise Time
0.35 / 0.239 nS = 1.464 MHz

SA1X / SA2X has much better transient response with 1.464 MHz estimated bandwidth vs. NS-05P at 176 KHz estimated bandwidth


Channel Imbalance

SA2X A03 Gain vs Volume Control Setting
23 20190109 SA2X A03 Gain vs Volume Control Setting.png


NS-05P A03 Gain vs Volume Control Setting
24 20190109 NS-05P A03 Gain vs Volume Control Setting.png

Stepped attenuators may not achieve exact dB attenuation due to limitations of discrete resistor values while a potentiometer is nearly infinite in value setting. But the stepped attenuator can achieve precise, repeatable level settings which is more difficult with a potentiometer. Channel imbalance is also an issue as can be seen above. Left and Right channels overlay exactly on SA2X graph while the imbalance is apparent in the NS-05P graph.

Left - Right channel tracking
25 20190109 SA2X Gain vs Volume Knob Setting.png


26 20190109 NS-05P Gain vs Volume Knob Setting.png

Another way to look at channel imbalance. Consider the Left channel as the correct attenuation level and compare Right channel difference. In the SA2X graph L-R channel tracking is impeccable. NS-05P begins reasonably well with minimal attenuation but as attenuation is increased channel tracking deteriorates considerably.
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 12:06 PM Post #4 of 13
Frequency Response vs Attenuation

42 dB Attenuation - Belden 1800F cable 2 ft
30 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 42 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png

SA2X (blue) NS-05P (red) performance is essentially identical out to 40 KHz


36 dB Attenuation - Belden 1800F cable 2 ft
31 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 36 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png

SA2X (blue) NS-05P (red) performance is essentially identical out to 20 KHz


24 dB Attenuation - Belden 1800F cable 2 ft
32 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 24 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png

SA2X (blue) remains unchanged while NS-05P (red) drops 0.25 dB at 20 KHz


12 dB Attenuation - Belden 1800F cable 2 ft
33 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 12 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png

SA2X (blue) drops approximately 0.1 dB at 20 KHz while NS-05P (red) drops 2 dB at 20 KHz
The 2 dB drop might be objectionable to many listeners.

6 dB Attenuation - Belden 1800F cable 2 ft
34 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 6 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png

SA2X (blue) drops approximately 0.2 dB at 20 KHz while NS-05P (red) is estimated to drop 3 to 4 dB at 20 KHz
Again the high frequency attenuation might be objectionable to many listeners.

With attenuations 20 dB or greater, the two devices perform similarly. But when attenuating between 1 and 20 dB SA2X offers far less high frequency loss than the NS-05P.
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 12:06 PM Post #5 of 13
Frequency Response vs cable type and length

SA2X blue - NS-05P red in graphs below

42 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft
40 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 42 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png


42 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 1_5 ft
41 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 42 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 1_5 ft.png


42 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 10 ft
42 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 42 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 10 ft.png


At 42 dB attenuation again there is little performance difference between the two passive attenuators


6 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft - estimated cable capacitance 24 pF
43 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 6 dB attenuation Belden 1800F 2 ft.png


6 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 1_5 ft - estimated cable capacitance 69 pF
44 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 6 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 1_5 ft.png


6 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 10 ft - estimated cable capacitance 460 pF
45 20190109 SA2X - NS-05P A02 frequency response 6 dB attenuation Canare L-4E6S 10 ft.png


At 6 dB attenuation very large performance differences are observed. Cable capacitance has a dominating influence on high frequency roll off.

Lesson: keep cables short between Passive Attenuator Output and Amplifier Input. Lower capacitance cables provide better performance.

Conclusion
When used with at least 20 dB attenuation and very short, low capacitance cables the Nobsound NS-05P will come close to the performance of Goldpoint SA1X. With attenuations between 1 and 20 dB high frequencies will be diminished as demonstrated above and deteriorate further with higher capacitance cables and longer cable runs.
 
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Feb 5, 2019 at 1:49 PM Post #7 of 13
I don’t have time to look at this closely right now, because I’m on my phone, but is there anything here that would be an audible difference listening to music at a normal listening level in a home? Offhand everything I see on my cursory glance is beyond anything i’d ever be able to hear.
 
Feb 5, 2019 at 3:39 PM Post #8 of 13
1. Will you use less than 20 dB of attenuation?
2. Can you hear -1 dB at 10KHz?
3. Do you care about channel imbalance at high attenuation?

If yes to #1 and #2, then you will likely hear the NS-05P to rolling off highs between 1 and 20 dB attenuation.

If yes to #3 then low volumes will change the balance in a noticeable way.

The big issue with NS-05P is use of a 50K pot instead of 10K. High end roll off issues would be eliminated if Nobsound changed the Alps to a 10K pot.
 
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:29 PM Post #9 of 13
I would probably use less than 20dB of attenuation on a volume pot. (Do you mean 20dB or less?) But I know I can't hear -1dB at 10kHz and I doubt I'd care about channel imbalances if the music is playing very very softly.
 
Feb 6, 2019 at 12:46 AM Post #10 of 13
I would expect such device to be used mostly with little attenuation, be it to set a voltage low enough so the next device can take it, or as a volume matching tool in tests between gears. so at least for the second option, the possibility of creating some audible differences is problematic. I guess it's yet another case of having to spend good money if we want to do good testing :sob:


TBH after seeing the first post I was tempted to buy the cheap one, it has a nice big looking knob and nice input output options. but then you posted the rest with channel matching and FR, and I'm less interested. even the knob on my old O2 has better tracking. the only stuff I own that's even worst is the little shure airplane kit where I get almost 5dB channel mismatch at -50dB and also about 0.5dB imbalance in the -20dB area. it has other issues but it's a great airplane kit ^_^.
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 9:59 AM Post #11 of 13
Rather than comparing a cheap passive attenuator to a expensive attenuator, your comparing a 50k pot to a 10k pot, what about the goldpoint-sa2x compared to a cheap 10k pot attenuator like the jbl nanopatch.
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 12:40 PM Post #12 of 13
Rather than comparing a cheap passive attenuator to a expensive attenuator, your comparing a 50k pot to a 10k pot, what about the goldpoint-sa2x compared to a cheap 10k pot attenuator like the jbl nanopatch.
I believe I already addressed your question in posts 1 and 8 above:
Very important design differences between SA2X and NS-05P
SA2X 10K ohm stepped attenuator, 4 gang switch with precision low noise resistors
NS-05P 50K ohm potentiometer, ALPS 4 gang

The big issue with NS-05P is use of a 50K pot instead of 10K. High end roll off issues would be eliminated if Nobsound changed the Alps to a 10K pot.
 
Feb 23, 2019 at 5:18 PM Post #13 of 13
@atomicbob - great read!!!
I am looking for a good solution to "tame down" noisy tubes and little useful volume knob play with my Monoprice LP... Considering both passive and active pre-amps / attenuators between my DAC and the LP.

What do you recommend? The Goldpoint is VERY expensive...
Have you tested / tried Schiit Saga?
 

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