Goldmund V.S. Pioneer !!??
Jan 22, 2008 at 12:14 PM Post #92 of 164

memepool

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
2,689
Likes
13
Quote:

Originally Posted by arnaud /img/forum/go_quote.gif
More up the ladder, the Linn unidisk SC, which sells for less than 5kUSD. I only found 1 picture of the inside online, and it does look a lot cleaner than the Goldmund pics in this thread: audio.de - Linn Unidisk SC, 4700 Euro

Linn Unidisk 2.1 (I guess the old generation of universal player?): was 7.5kUSD, look at the innards, now we're talking:
Linn Unidisk 2.1
.



I recently heard the Unidisc 2.1 compared to the previous generation Linn Ikemi. The first thing that struck about the Unidisk was how cheap and nasty the loading action was compared to the Ikemi and how noisy the mechanism was, servos whining and rattling audibly during repay. Not so relaxing with chamber music.

Sonically it was still impressive but overall not a convincing replacement for the Ikemi on any level other than the added bonus of being able to play other formats. The Unidisc uses a Sony DVD transport compared to the bespoke Linn transport in the Ikemi, a scaled down version of the one in the CD12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnaud /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No question, everybody is using Japanese drives and big name audio/video decoding chips. But, for 10+kUSD, I can guarantee you most honest / talented small audio companies based in Europe/US can do more than rebadge and change the transformer / plugs...

Even the isolation work on the drive sounds like nothing special. Everybody has to suspend mechanics on rods to fit in the new box. Now, I would like to see how they managed to create alunminums of such varying grade that their properties actually significantly help to isolate the drive... But, hey, maybe they're mechanical engineers of a special kind and can bend laws of physics
wink.gif




This is a real problem for smaller companies that can not afford to build optical drives. It took Linn 15 years after the inception of CD to even attempt such a device and they obviously didn't sell that many since they've since stopped production.

To my mind what Goldmund have done to re-engineer the mechanism is the best possible kind of solution to this issue and I'm sure it has a big influence on the sound.

Transports can and do have an effect. I have recently been experimenting with an Arcam Blackbox 500 DAC with various transports. It certainly improves the sound of my Pioneer DVD player but isn't hugely different sounding to using a vintage Marantz CD player with a die cast CDM which would seem to bely the idea of the transport having an effect. However using an Arcam 250 transport with the last generation Philips CDM and an optical clocking linkage makes a huge improvment to the sound.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 12:41 PM Post #93 of 164

arnaud

Stax and Sushi
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Posts
2,950
Likes
1,407
Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif
To my mind what Goldmund have done to re-engineer the mechanism is the best possible kind of solution to this issue and I'm sure it has a big influence on the sound.

Transports can and do have an effect. I have recently been experimenting with an Arcam Blackbox 500 DAC with various transports. It certainly improves the sound of my Pioneer DVD player but isn't hugely different sounding to using a vintage Marantz CD player with a die cast CDM which would seem to bely the idea of the transport having an effect. However using an Arcam 250 transport with the last generation Philips CDM and an optical clocking linkage makes a huge improvment to the sound.



Surely. Don't misread my point. I do believe in fighting vibration transmission from the drive to the electronics and am not dismissing Goldmund's work. But, really, drilling holes in off the shelf aluminum beams and painting them in various colors still should not jack up the price to 12 grands...

As I can see from the other small Europe based high-end electronics manufacturers, it seems that EVERYBODY makes their own boards and manages to resell universal players (some beautiful looking like Primare) for less than 8kUSD.

I wish Nagra made one. They're also based in Swiss if I am not mistaken and everyone of their product is truly a work of art mechanically and visually. I guess it would cost more than the Goldmund but you would wonder less where the money went I am sure...

arnaud.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 12:55 PM Post #94 of 164

arnaud

Stax and Sushi
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Posts
2,950
Likes
1,407
Actually, even if it's comparing apples and oranges in a way, here is what 15kUSD buys you from a proper Switzerland based (thus high cost of engineering) manufacturer:

Nagra CDC: CD player only (but really here, I do believe the machining work costs more than the electronics!!
wink.gif
), 15kUSD
http://www.nagraaudio.com/highend/do...gra_CD_fra.pdf

And this time, I actually do believe the isolation stage has been optimized and designed by somebody who actually is a mechanical engineer...

arnaud.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 1:02 PM Post #95 of 164

memepool

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
2,689
Likes
13
Quote:

Originally Posted by arnaud /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But, really, drilling holes in off the shelf aluminum beams and painting them in various colors still should not jack up the price to 12 grands...
.



The Goldmund SRDVD, which I think was the one originally mentioned is around 6000USD which doesn't seem all that expensive for anything with Goldmund written on it. I am more surprised that they would put out something in this pricerange as I said, because you kind of expect something completely over engineered costing a ridiculous amount whereas this is quite competitively priced, but not upto the level of engineering one would expect.


Quote:

Originally Posted by arnaud /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I wish Nagra made one.


Now you're talking
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 1:24 PM Post #96 of 164

Robonaut

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Posts
204
Likes
11
I've been reading this thread with considerable interest.

Based on what's been said, does it ever really make sense to purchase equipment from these high-end companies when products like the Marantz Reference series exist?

It seems to me, with the Marantz stuff, you're getting the bullet-proof build quality of the uber high-end manufacturers while benefitting, price-wise, from the economies of scale that come from being part of a huge global company.

Thoughts?
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 2:04 PM Post #97 of 164

Herandu

Banned: Shares IP addresses with DC Lee StanleyB1
Joined
May 20, 2006
Posts
1,179
Likes
13
Marantz and Pioneer do a reference series. The Marantz CD-91, Philips CD-960, and Pioneer CDP-93 & CDP-95 are the best CD players ever built. They were all below £1000 and so far nothing built since then has surpassed these players. No wonder then that all 4 of them can command extremely high prices even if they are in very poor shape when sold.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 2:05 PM Post #98 of 164

sghound

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Posts
364
Likes
54
looks like the GOLD sign on the remote is the one that costs 6000 quid. the player comes free with it. way to go Goldmund! thank you for putting so much effort in your original designs. "We Love You So Much"

20080113_777424c14aa2d629963cXBk6ldn95elI.jpg
20080112_bbb4bd05e4670333985car2hkIMlJ5BL.jpg
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 2:46 PM Post #99 of 164

infinitesymphony

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
May 15, 2006
Posts
4,621
Likes
15
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robonaut /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Based on what's been said, does it ever really make sense to purchase equipment from these high-end companies when products like the Marantz Reference series exist?


Sure... Some high end companies use better circuit designs, boutique parts, etc. for their equipment. But then again, some mainstream companies' statement products are just as good. It pays to do the research before you buy.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 3:11 PM Post #100 of 164

Herandu

Banned: Shares IP addresses with DC Lee StanleyB1
Joined
May 20, 2006
Posts
1,179
Likes
13
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sure... Some high end companies use better circuit designs,


I would totally like to refute that allegation. Even budget priced stuff can use better circuit designs. The final price tag is one decided by the accounts and marketing people.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 3:20 PM Post #101 of 164

markl

Hangin' with the monkeys.
Member of the Trade: Lawton Audio
Joined
Jun 22, 2001
Posts
9,130
Likes
44
Quote:

looks like the GOLD sign on the remote is the one that costs 6000 quid. the player comes free with it. way to go Goldmund! thank you for putting so much effort in your original designs. "We Love You So Much"


Yeah, how dare they not include a "high-end" remote, you know the one with special high-end functions like the one that stops time and allows me to rob banks, or the one that mutes my wife's nagging! The bastards!
tongue.gif


Dude, that is the remote that works all the functions of the base Pioneer trasport they are using. Why re-invent the wheel unnecessarily? Or, are you just mad they didn't stuff the guts of the Peioneer remote into a fancy metal package, you know, like they did with the rest of the player that already outrages you? D'oh!
tongue.gif
Would you like to pay even more for a fancy box to house that remote in or more still to develop a whole new one that only duplicates the features already provided by the stock remote? Isn't that your basic problem with this Goldmund CDP in the first place?
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 3:44 PM Post #102 of 164

memepool

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
2,689
Likes
13
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robonaut /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It seems to me, with the Marantz stuff, you're getting the bullet-proof build quality of the uber high-end manufacturers while benefitting, price-wise, from the economies of scale that come from being part of a huge global company.


The Marantz CD-94 and CD12 were some of the best CD players ever made definitely and still stand up today but these were when Marantz was owned by Philips and Philips themselves were on the cutting edge of CD being one of the originators. I don't know if their newest SACD stuff is quite so epoch making but it is very well reviewed.

Nevertheless it was almost 20 years ago when these players cost over 1000UKP which was a lot more money then than it is today and the Marantz reference series today is 10 x this amount.

Marantz mechanisms these days are more likely to come from Denon which is part of the same company D&M holdings, along with McIntosh. Moreover they are unlikely to be much more specifically attuned to CD playback than the Pioneer mechanism inside the Goldmund.

The issue is more that CD playback and indeed SACD playback are pretty technologically redundant per se as optical mechanisms like this are now geared towards the next generation of media Blu-Ray / HDDVD, if they are to endure at all. This is far from being a forgone conclusion as with the constant advances in broadband and the growth of online distribution via things like itunes, you have to ask what will we be putting on these media if they exist in 10 years time.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 3:52 PM Post #103 of 164

infinitesymphony

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
May 15, 2006
Posts
4,621
Likes
15
Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I would totally like to refute that allegation. Even budget priced stuff can use better circuit designs. The final price tag is one decided by the accounts and marketing people.


But that's not always the case... Some audiophile companies do include better circuit designs, and not all audiophile brands have ridiculous prices. But I think it's clear to everyone that a price or brand is not a guarantee of quality, both with mainstream and non-mass-market manufacturers. I didn't mean to imply that a higher-end company would always be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why re-invent the wheel unnecessarily? Or, are you just mad they didn't stuff the guts of the Peioneer remote into a fancy metal package, you know, like they did with the rest of the player that already outrages you?


This question wasn't to me, but, yeah... Actually, that's one thing I would expect for the price. The best part that the Goldmund player has going for itself is the enclosure. At least with that there's no chance of damaging the inexpensive Pioneer parts inside.
biggrin.gif


Seriously, though. For $12000, I expect a remote that won't break when someone sits on it. If they charge that much for the player, imagine how much they'll charge for a replacement remote.
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 4:49 PM Post #104 of 164

hciman77

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Posts
2,890
Likes
12
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But I think it's clear to everyone that a price or brand is not a guarantee of quality, both with mainstream and non-mass-market manufacturers.


Yep, cost is cost Fi is Fi !

Quote:

Seriously, though. For $12000, I expect a remote that won't break when someone sits on it. If they charge that much for the player, imagine how much they'll charge for a replacement remote.


Nah, you would just buy it from Pioneer
wink.gif


Most solid remote I ever owned was from a $300 Onix CD player, a usbaility nightmare but a very solid metal case, now if a rebadged $200 Shanling S100 can have a metal remote.......

I read through Goldmund's press relaeases from 1995 onwards, it seems to me that in between making some truly highly engineered things and some lash-ups they are a bit precious. They talk about a fast power cable they make to get the best out of their kit, in all seriousness they sell a ***fast*** power cable, call me old fashioned but I though the speed of electrical propogation was more or less deterministic at more or less 46% of the speed of light - how does one power cable transmit electricity faster than another, and given it is AC at 50/60 hz does that make any sense but the more expensive thicker upmarket power cable they sell can ***only*** be used on high power power amps not on CD players
confused.gif
- like the electrons know
biggrin.gif
 
Jan 22, 2008 at 6:56 PM Post #105 of 164

memepool

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Posts
2,689
Likes
13
Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
They talk about a fast power cable they make to get the best out of their kit, in all seriousness they sell a ***fast*** power cable


Their english is actually pretty poor if you read the rest of the site for which I suppose you have to give them the benefit of the doubt on being Swiss. Still you'd think such a prestigious brand would employ someone who can speak the language to proofread their press.

Still I can't believe that remote control I didn't realise Goldmund were going so downmarket. That's just a typical Japanese ergonomic nightmare.

Although in fairness they are far from alone there as very few manufacturers seem to bother with making decent looking remotes. Cyrus and Arcam are definite cases in point and there is no excuse when firms like Cambridge Audio can make something half decent looking at a fraction of the price.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top