Goldmund V.S. Pioneer !!??
Jan 28, 2008 at 3:59 PM Post #136 of 164

milkpowder

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I have a sneaky feeling TEAC Estoeric make their own DVD transports. The VRDS-NEO (which iirc includes the CD tray, motor, various bits that form the structure of the transport, etc) is certainly in most of Esoteric's DVD-spinning players. However, I'm not certain whether the actual optics and accompanying servo control are Esoteric's own.

Alex Peychev of APL Hifi is an expert of all things Esoteric. If you're really interested, shoot him an email about it.


One more thing:
If you count Sony as an audiophile company (the ES line, for example), their earlier transports are legendary.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 5:02 PM Post #137 of 164

memepool

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Ok I should qualify audiophile company as one that makes Hi-Fi equipment as their main focus of operations as opposed to huge industrial combines like Sony, Philips, Matsu****a etc that are involved in general consumer electronics.

Teac VRDS is a well known example I mentioned earlier.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 5:37 PM Post #138 of 164

milkpowder

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You're right that very few hi fi companies make their own CD transports. However, they make just about everything else. For example, both EMM Labs and dCS make some of the very best disc players in the world. Both use other company's transports, but both design their own D/A circuits from scratch and both have disc spinners which are priced around the Goldmunds.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 6:03 PM Post #139 of 164

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif
However, they make just about everything else. For example, both EMM Labs and dCS make some of the very best disc players in the world. Both use other company's transports, but both design their own D/A circuits from scratch and both have disc spinners which are priced around the Goldmunds.


The EMM labs CDSD transport alone costs about 9000USD for a transport (not made by EMM labs) and it's a Canadian company so the weakness of the dollar is pretty irrelevant.
The DCS Verdi transport costs 8000UKP in the UK so I would imagine it's twice that in the USA being an English company I think?
These are both CD / SACD transports, almost certainly supplied by Sony or Philips or another major CE manufacturer, as opposed to multi standard home cinema players like the Goldmund we were discussing.

I am sure they are both excellent machines but I'm not sure exactly what mentioning them proves?
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 6:36 PM Post #140 of 164

rodentmacbeastie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This thread is so full of misinformation and half baked nonsense.

1. The Goldmund DVD player mentioned by the OP is 6000USD which has more to do with the weakness of the USD than anything else. All European kit being sold in the USA suffers from this.

2. 90%+ of so-called audiophile companies that offer DVD players are using third party transports and chipsets.



The only misinformation in this thread that I can find is Goldmund's and those who have no respect for his fellow man. Also, from many of the post here I understood it was 6000GBP. Even if it is $6000 US, that is still a $200 player with a $25 transformer, maybe $50 worth of connectors, and IMHO and ugly case. Regardless of my tastes, you are paying $5250 to buy a case and nice champagne for the execs at Goldmund to celebrate bumming you! If it is indeed 6000GBP, then I don't even see how one would defend them unless they worked for Goldmund.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 6:36 PM Post #141 of 164

milkpowder

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I have no problem with manufacturers using others' transports. The CD-Pro2M, found in countless very high end players, is a superb transport. What I take issue with is the fact that you pay so much for something that is actually more or less a replica of a much cheaper product. Regardless of how the Goldmund sounds, I find the recent discoveries rather hard to take in. At similar prices, you can get yourself a player which was actually engineered by the company themselves using technologies which they developed.

Note that I did not mention specific models. I was simply talking about Goldmund players in general, loosely comparing their technology (or lack of) to two other highly regarded manufacturers. Just from looking at how Goldmund describe their players, it appears that they put a lot of emphasis on mechanical grounding, transport stability and vibration isolation, not unlike Esoteric.

If the $6k Goldmund is a modified $200 Pioneer, than I really don't have much faith in their $40k+ range topper either. You wait until someone pries the hood off one of them... I don't doubt that Goldmunds sound good. Heck, my Aiwa all in one DVD player sounds pretty darn good too. Maybe you're comfortable with paying an extortionate amount for repackaged gear, but I expect the manufacturer to at least put some damn effort into producing a piece which they can truly call their own.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 6:44 PM Post #142 of 164

rodentmacbeastie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You're right that very few hi fi companies make their own CD transports. However, they make just about everything else. For example, both EMM Labs and dCS make some of the very best disc players in the world. Both use other company's transports, but both design their own D/A circuits from scratch and both have disc spinners which are priced around the Goldmunds.




Exactly! I know that Sony and Philips make most of the world's CD mechanisms and Sony has the market on SACD decoders, but if I can build a universal player only using the Pioneer mechanism and SACD decoder from Sony(no way around this) and the rest from DIY sites, I think an ultra high end company like Goldmund would at least do there own DAC and output stage.

And besides, my point still remains... How can a company proclaim they are research leaders and then not do any for there products? They advertise this! After reading their oh so pleasant response to headfiers, their attitude is clear so why defend them. Especially when they say nowhere that they use the whole d**m Pioneer player!

If guys like Modwright can make a $2000 Sony player sound like a $20000 player doing mods, and I mean some of the most respected mods and preamps in the busines, for a lot less why should Goldmund get the right to screw you? Modwright player are STILL CALLED Sony or Denon modded players and he does a lot to them like separate SS or tube rect. PS, full tube output from the DAC out. In fact, I don't know of a single professional modder that changes changes the name and just re-cases a player.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 7:33 PM Post #144 of 164

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From many of the post here I understood it was 6000GBP. Even if it is $6000 US, that is still a $200 player with a $25 transformer, maybe $50 worth of connectors, and IMHO and ugly case. Regardless of my tastes, you are paying $5250 to buy a case and nice champagne for the execs at Goldmund to celebrate bumming you! If it is indeed 6000GBP, then I don't even see how one would defend them unless they worked for Goldmund.


I must confess I have never heard that Goldmund or any other Goldmund for that matter and don't have the money for exotic DVD multiplayers. In fact I have a Pioneer DVD575A
tongue.gif
but that's irrelevant.

The issue here, as far as I am concerned, is that everyone seems to be happily hurling mud at a company hardly any of them have even heard of on the basis of some seriously ignorant conceptions about how Hi-Fi equipment is made these days.

By comparison I fail to see what is so laudable about EMM labs or DCS reboxing a major CE manufacturers SACD transport and charging between 9-16,000 USD for the means to spin a pretty defunct medium and a largely obselete one? not hear them you understand just spin them at the right speed, as for that you'll need the matching DAC which will set you back at least the same again. ...

The fact is that when it comes to optical disc formats every small manufacturer buys in a lot of the parts because only large scale CE multinationals have the industrial resources to manufacture this kind of stuff.

Most consumers are perfectly happy with the mass produced Chinese kit and want to pay as little as possible for it. The market for people who want to listen to a specialist "audiophile" equipment and formats is a very small one. It's what's called a Boutique product.

So a machine that's been designed and built for this market by a company in Europe or North America employing people who actually live and work in those countries comes at a large premium, even if all they have done is mixed and matched off-the-peg-parts from South East Asia and combined them with a fancy power supply.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 7:42 PM Post #145 of 164

milkpowder

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Iirc, dCS use a version of the VRDS-NEO found in the $7.5k X-03SE. Now that is a good transport. Wadia also use VRDS transports (most likely the same as the dCS because Esoteric apparently don't "sell" the higher end VRDS transports to other people).

Entirely off topic, but both EMM labs and dCS make all-in-ones around the $9-13k region. Both use proprietary circuits to convert DSD into analogue.

SACDs are dead as far as the general population are concerned, but there is still a lot of demand from audiophiles. High end SACDP makers cater for audiophiles and there are probably enough of them around to support the record companies judging by the turnout at major audio-visual shows.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 8:34 PM Post #146 of 164

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
... if I can build a universal player only using the Pioneer mechanism and SACD decoder from Sony(no way around this) and the rest from DIY sites, I think an ultra high end company like Goldmund would at least do there own DAC and output stage.
.



You're doing exactly what all these "audiophile" companies are doing yourself then which is very impressive. I wouldn't know where to start
frown.gif


But you're part of the tradition of how many of these kinds of companies started which I think is also laudable. Basically the whole DIY scene which is one of the only vaguely interesting things that has happened in digital audio in the last decade, follows on the heals of small traditional analogue specialist Hi-Fi companies like Linn, Naim , Arcam , Goldmund etc entering the CD market 20 years ago, a good 10 years after it's inception. By which time of course DVD was just starting to kick in the mainstream and the R&D depts of the majors had all moved on to HD or Blue-Ray.

It's a technology trickle-down effect created by mass production which has allowed a DIY culture of drawing on different concepts from the whole product cycle of CD giving rise to NOS DACs and suchlike. Interesting stuff and great that industrialising music replay on this level hasn't killed the opportunities for the talented individual engineer to contribute, which many people thought that it might.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How can a company proclaim they are research leaders and then not do any for there products? They advertise this! After reading their oh so pleasant response to headfiers, their attitude is clear so why defend them. Especially when they say nowhere that they use the whole d**m Pioneer player!
.



I'm not defending them per se I'm merely wondering why they have been singled out for such a lambasting when they are just doing what many similarly sized companies in "High End" audio are doing, trying to address the marketplace and keep the accountants off their backs whilst spending their time making madly overengineered turntables and CD players sound as good as they possibly can.
As I said before, I am surprised that they would offer a product like this at this price level at all as it is devaluing their brand if anything.
People expect uberengineered esoterica from Swiss brands like Studer, Revox, Goldmund and Nagra and offering anything less seems like they're selling themselves short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If guys like Modwright can make a $2000 Sony player sound like a $20000 player doing mods, and I mean some of the most respected mods and preamps in the busines, for a lot less why should Goldmund get the right to screw you? Modwright player are STILL CALLED Sony or Denon modded players and he does a lot to them like separate SS or tube rect. PS, full tube output from the DAC out. In fact, I don't know of a single professional modder that changes changes the name and just re-cases a player.


This comes down to intellectual property rights and, at least in Europe, very strict controls on the percentage of a CE product that has to have been assembled or manufactured to be allowed to say "Made in Germany" for example.
Modwright can charge less because they have probably done a deal whereby they add their logo to a Sony product. Sony keeps the IP and gets hardcore engineering kudos from having their equipment promoted in the DIY community and Modwright get to mess with cool Sony technology and make a small profit.

To actually license the right to sell Sony's patented technology under your own brandname would be a bit more expensive, hence the difference between your 2000USD and 20,000USD player a cynic might be tempted to say
wink.gif
. In fact various pundits have pointed to the fact that the driving force behind the development of newer and "better" optical disc formats has been to maintain Philips/Sony IP rights...
rolleyes.gif
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 10:12 PM Post #147 of 164

rodentmacbeastie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I must confess I have never heard that Goldmund or any other Goldmund for that matter and don't have the money for exotic DVD multiplayers. In fact I have a Pioneer DVD575A
tongue.gif
but that's irrelevant.

The issue here, as far as I am concerned, is that everyone seems to be happily hurling mud at a company hardly any of them have even heard of on the basis of some seriously ignorant conceptions about how Hi-Fi equipment is made these days.

By comparison I fail to see what is so laudable about EMM labs or DCS reboxing a major CE manufacturers SACD transport and charging between 9-16,000 USD for the means to spin a pretty defunct medium and a largely obselete one? not hear them you understand just spin them at the right speed, as for that you'll need the matching DAC which will set you back at least the same again. ...

The fact is that when it comes to optical disc formats every small manufacturer buys in a lot of the parts because only large scale CE multinationals have the industrial resources to manufacture this kind of stuff.

Most consumers are perfectly happy with the mass produced Chinese kit and want to pay as little as possible for it. The market for people who want to listen to a specialist "audiophile" equipment and formats is a very small one. It's what's called a Boutique product.

So a machine that's been designed and built for this market by a company in Europe or North America employing people who actually live and work in those countries comes at a large premium, even if all they have done is mixed and matched off-the-peg-parts from South East Asia and combined them with a fancy power supply.





So you are saying I am throwing mud? I am ignorant to think that pretty much every high end device I scout(open 10 players, listen, buy one) to buy gets opened first and almost all have had great build quality and design and then I see this. I have only seen a couple that even come close to this scam. There have been a preamp or two and a CD player or two as well out of a couple hundred products I have seen with their lids off. I have three EE friends that are into Hifi and have killer systems which I have listened to and opened with them to discuss the insides. I showed this thread to and they wet themselves laughing at the gull of Goldmund. Really now, if this is not obvious to you it must be lost somewhere in your monitor.

The difference between the Dcs, Esoteric, EMM, etc. and this one is the others actually try to build some thing of extreme quality or cutting edge technology and that justifies the price. These are not mixed and matched parts in the Goldmund... This is a DV-575 with a different transformer and jacks, really that is about it. Not a really fancy power supply, same supply different transformer. Would you pay $12000 for your player if it was in a nice case? Not if you knew.

As for most of today's components, they are mostly built in Asia regardless of where they are designed. It is not the point of where they were designed or built or if they use certain parts. It is that they used all of the parts, cased it and changed the name. Did you see the post with the Ferrari/Fiero? Would you pay $200000 for an entry level Ferrari if it was made by GM with a nice Ferrari body on it? Oh wait, just like the transformer the Fiero would have an upgraded alternator. LOL!

The defunct and obsolete mediums... When a computer sounds as good as SACD and I can transfer my SACDs to the computer I won't need one anymore. These high res mediums are also(not all) keeping good recording alive. The computer based audio craze is killing recording quality.
 
Jan 29, 2008 at 4:17 AM Post #148 of 164

morphsci

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Quote:

Originally Posted by What morphsci actually said
You guys are so funny. Why do you get upset by this? Really I want to know. Is it that you are so outraged by this? And if so why? You obviously are not going to be buying a Goldmund, so what is the point? Some people will and some people won't. Get over it and grow up. I guess this is one of the reasons that many of the original head-fiers no longer post here. Too many self-righteous ****'s that have nothing better to do than complain about what other people do. And they do it from web images, not even from their own comparisons. I'm sorry but this thread is simply a pitiful example of why head-fi has degenerated over the years. Please continue with your self righteous indignation, I think I will listen to some music on my overpriced and woefully inadequate system
rolleyes.gif



Quote:

Originally Posted by What tvrbob86 heard
Complain . . . Complain . . . Complain . . . Too many self-righteous ****'s that have nothing better to do than complain about what other people do. Complain . . . Complain . . . Complain . . .



Quote:

Originally Posted by what tvrbob86 said
I totally agree.



O.K. Now I understand. I'll try to use smaller words next time
rolleyes.gif
 
Jan 29, 2008 at 1:11 PM Post #150 of 164

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So you are saying I am throwing mud? .


Frankly yes.

What on earth have cars got to do with this?

Why do keep saying this Golmund costs 12,000 USD when it's half that?

What high end devices that arn't Teac (Esoteric) or reboxed Teac (DCS, EMM Labs) and don't cost at least twice as much (for a full set that can actually play music), have great build quality when it comes to transports ? ie the mechanical part of the unit which will have the most influence on sound quality?

Meridian? Linn? Arcam? At least Goldmund have stripped down the mechanism and rebuilt it from metal which is bound to make it more impervious to vibration from itself and it's surroundings. Yes this is something which could be done by any skilled engineer with access to a small machine shop but it's a sound design improvement nonetheless over the basic Pioneer varient and what you'd expect at the price.

Furthermore you are not comparing like with like. This Goldmund DVD multiplayer is a home cinema multiplayer not a bespoke highend music player.
It's pitched in this market somewhere between say Arcam and the Linn Unidisk which I'm sure arn't exactly cheap in the USA either due to the weak dollar.


Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie
The computer based audio craze is killing recording quality.


That sentence exhibits total ignorance. If you had been anywhere near any kind of recording studio in the last 15 years you'd know that everything is computer based these days and if your music is mastered on a hardrive then playing it back on one makes a certain degree of sense.
 

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