Going fully Wireless IEMs. Too soon? Or are we there yet?
May 10, 2022 at 9:01 PM Post #45,226 of 61,378
So, as far as TWS adapter, I bought the UTWS5 as soon as it came out, and I used the z1r with them... at the gym. My experience is that it didn't sound better than the XM4, which was a bummer, but I think the true issue was lack of power. The z1r need some power to make them shine. Paired with the Ifi idsd signature, they sounded flipping brilliant. with UTWS5, not so much. I considered going with a more easily powered iem, but that's just another rabbit hole... but I guess this whole hobby is that. My wife gives me the side eye every time something shows up on our porch.
I have read the 1ZR is a beast for power. The Fiio FH5 sings on the UTWS5 but kind of makes sense that they would make work well with their own IEMs.
 
May 10, 2022 at 9:42 PM Post #45,227 of 61,378
TWS is limited by two things in my opinion.

One is the BT technology itself. It is a technology designed more for transmitting digital information such as keyboard and mouse and as such is not inherently good enough to transmit sound information without the use of a lossy format (losing data). The sound quality can be improved by dividing up the responsibility of the chip receiving the digital signal from managing everything. The challenge is by separating different components from the BT chip you need more electronics making the internals bigger.

This leads to and exacerbates the second issue with TWS. Everything has to be crammed into one small enclosure! This leads to less than optimal driver configuration and allows for very little if any room to let the driver have a cavity (more important with dynamic drivers). The TWS manufacturer then is reduced to using electronic processing to make up for the poor driver placement and design.

Neither of these issues will be solved by a custom shell unless its using only BA drivers and is designed to fully encased with no cavities and then all electronics would need to be placed on top of the driver configuration making it too bulky.

Having tried 2 different hybrid TWS and one hybrid (Fiio FH5) with TWS adapter (Fiio UTWS5) I can say that using an adapter gives the best possible experience sonically speaking. A good TWS adapter has enough room to allow for more electronics so the BT chip can be dedicated to only the BT processing and a separate DAC cab ben used to convert that signal into music. This combined with the IEM itself not needing to be compromised in regards to driver placement and design will give you the closest to a wired sound as possible and it is very good in my opinion.

The good news is if your existing custom IEM is either a 2 pin or COAX connected model you will be able to easily attach it to a TWS adapter allowing you to get the best of both worlds sonically speaking.
Couldn't agree more. Obviously there are a few that can replay music with close to the same fidelity. There are ways of using a smaller space to correctly tune a tws iem but there will mostly be shortcomings until the tech gets smaller. Some can pull it off. Couldn't agree more about the use of adapters though. They really are fantastic. That said, the only shortcoming I see is that they are quite a bit larger. Not that it ever bothered me. I wear them different places at times. If I'm doing a review of an iem, I'll wear them (utws5 + iem) out and about and have zero issue with it. I've had the utws5 since the week it came out and I'm telling you they sound amazing with any iem I put in them and I've tried alot. Totally agree
 
May 10, 2022 at 9:45 PM Post #45,228 of 61,378
Nothing that excited me on the TWS front. I went and bought this though...
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Got a Hiby WU1 and a pair of CCA CRA. Total was $98 with tax and shipping($69 + $21). Got some power with a QCC5125 and AK4331 combo. LDAC, UAT, and the aptX's and all that. Hi-Res and Hi-Res wireless certified and I can ditch the case. A safer bet with glasses as well over TWS adapters and nicer to press the buttons than behind the ear for my liking. Lays right off the shoulder so not bouncing or pulling down. Better than the usual pods hanging down with less weight and freer turning the head left and right. Nice compromise for my liking and we can all appreciate more power and headroom. :) Does use an app...
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CCA is indeed the little overachiever and easily powered. Big and open and surprisingly detailed and nicely extended and fun. Inexpensive, predictable, smallish, and the first one has a good F.R. for BT which is the reason I got it along with it's very spacious nature to counter compression. Great starting point anyhow. I did get the CCA first to run off my Z3 cable which has weaker power and it did well there but quickly got the Hiby to get better earguides and get USB-C and lose the dangle pods. :)

Course we lose ambient here. Well it just converts to popping the buds out instead of holding in to activate really. I always like the lay on the neck style since I use DAPs 3/4 of the time so no master/slave issue or turning the head giving a stutter since the antenna is no longer moving away. I mean I can still choose the master by which side Yamaha TW-E5B I pull out of the case first based on the pockets I have or want to use for a player. No issue with a phone having true stereo but for sports a 25 gram clip player versus the size and weight of a phone is a worse issue so I'll take tiny and select a side based on where best to clip on. Just no TWS connection issue using the Hiby though. Plus I love my little Cowon but it has older BT and I can't get perfect reception with TWS but I can with the Hiby esp. through walls.

Buttons are a little small and close together but it is a real good solution for me over the TWS adapter route.
This is actually a decent neckband style. I had it for a bit. The sound is fantastic. Hiby, Fiio, Shanling all make some really great ones. More expensive but imo the best out there is the Ikko arc itb05. Anyways, nice buy, Hiby did well with this adapter.
 
May 10, 2022 at 9:50 PM Post #45,229 of 61,378
The issue with battery drain that we're finding with most TWS is due to the app connectivity.
The Grado GT220, is simple using pure bluetooth connection, no app or any fancy equalizers and definitely no ANC.
In fact I would not use it for calls too as the microphone is quite poor.

But, the sound quality is amazing for music, awesome bass and good tonality.
The volume can get very loud, you will never run out of headroom and the battery last for weeks.
I could not use it for a few weeks and there will be no standby drain whatsoever.
I'am thinking of hanging on to them until somethin else comes up that can better it on the sonic ground without compromising things like battery.
I have said over and over that one of the few which compete toe to toe with the fokus pro is the gt220. In my opinion anyway. I had horrible connectivity issues where they would just lose connection or shut off. It stinks because I do think the Grados are one of the best for pure music. Just a powerhouse of a tws iem. Actually louder than the Fokus Pros, not that this means they are better but it is something. I do think the Fokus are a bit better but they are also $100 more.
 
May 10, 2022 at 9:55 PM Post #45,230 of 61,378
I have said over and over that one of the few which compete toe to toe with the fokus pro is the gt220. In my opinion anyway. I had horrible connectivity issues where they would just lose connection or shut off. It stinks because I do think the Grados are one of the best for pure music. Just a powerhouse of a tws iem. Actually louder than the Fokus Pros, not that this means they are better but it is something. I do think the Fokus are a bit better but they are also $100 more.
Any thoughts on which Earphone Tips (stock or 3rd party) are best with the Fokus Pros?
 
May 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM Post #45,231 of 61,378
This is actually a decent neckband style. I had it for a bit. The sound is fantastic. Hiby, Fiio, Shanling all make some really great ones. More expensive but imo the best out there is the Ikko arc itb05. Anyways, nice buy, Hiby did well with this adapter.
Yep, the Ikko is the best sounding one but a bit bigger/heavier. The IKKO is always scary for reports of reliability issues. Too scary to run around and shoot some hoops or whack a ball around with that one. :)
 
May 10, 2022 at 10:35 PM Post #45,232 of 61,378
That power on issue seems to have resolved itself for me. I did clean the contacts and wiggle them a few times when taking them out. Lucky I guess.
Got an email today from Amazon that MTW3 are delayed! May want to check your order status as I needed to "approve" the second attempt to ship.
 
May 10, 2022 at 10:37 PM Post #45,233 of 61,378
Got an email today from Amazon that MTW3 are delayed! May want to check your order status as I needed to "approve" the second attempt to ship.
So far so good. They're here in Chino, near LA already. Thanks for the heads up.
 
May 10, 2022 at 11:06 PM Post #45,234 of 61,378
Got the ok to return the Jabras. But have to say using the spinfits on the AZ60 has been a game changer for comfort and sound. So while tempted try either the Evo or MTW3 I have a feeling will just be a side grade and the Fokus Pro at over $400 Cad is just to rich for my blood and I still own the WI-1000X for a dose of Sony sound. I am starting to think maybe i should buy something like a Nintendo Switch Lite and play some games...

The only other TWS is the Linkbuds and don't think the battery life will be good enough...

Will watch the Evo, MTW3 and linkbud reviews and threads...
 
May 10, 2022 at 11:36 PM Post #45,235 of 61,378
Thanks for the info, and hopefully you can find something that's ideal for you.

Did you try AZLA Xelastec, or AZLA Crystal Tips?

It seems those are some of the best 3rd party Earphone Tips on the market.

Also, which Brands and Models of aftermarket Tips do you like?

Does anybody else have an opinion on which Tips (stock or 3rd party) are best for the Noble Fokus Pros?
I have most if not all of the Azla offerings, and they are some of my favorite tips! I did TRY to put some tips on them, but it was very difficult with the nozzle. With the defective order or BT problem (no sound in one bud), I decided to send it back without tip-rolling to find the best fit though. :frowning2:
Yes, I hope Noble or someone does make a similar tws in a smaller shell some day. Like I said, I think they are beautiful and probably amazing SQ for tws, but unfortunately my ear anatomy just doesn't work well with bigger shells.
 
May 10, 2022 at 11:50 PM Post #45,236 of 61,378
TWS is limited by two things in my opinion.

One is the BT technology itself. It is a technology designed more for transmitting digital information such as keyboard and mouse and as such is not inherently good enough to transmit sound information without the use of a lossy format (losing data). The sound quality can be improved by dividing up the responsibility of the chip receiving the digital signal from managing everything. The challenge is by separating different components from the BT chip you need more electronics making the internals bigger.

This leads to and exacerbates the second issue with TWS. Everything has to be crammed into one small enclosure! This leads to less than optimal driver configuration and allows for very little if any room to let the driver have a cavity (more important with dynamic drivers). The TWS manufacturer then is reduced to using electronic processing to make up for the poor driver placement and design.

Neither of these issues will be solved by a custom shell unless its using only BA drivers and is designed to fully encased with no cavities and then all electronics would need to be placed on top of the driver configuration making it too bulky.

Having tried 2 different hybrid TWS and one hybrid (Fiio FH5) with TWS adapter (Fiio UTWS5) I can say that using an adapter gives the best possible experience sonically speaking. A good TWS adapter has enough room to allow for more electronics so the BT chip can be dedicated to only the BT processing and a separate DAC cab ben used to convert that signal into music. This combined with the IEM itself not needing to be compromised in regards to driver placement and design will give you the closest to a wired sound as possible and it is very good in my opinion.

The good news is if your existing custom IEM is either a 2 pin or COAX connected model you will be able to easily attach it to a TWS adapter allowing you to get the best of both worlds sonically speaking.

Well said, that's why the best sounding TWS are so far those designed with a dedicated air chamber for physical tuning as well as (in some cases) a metal driver enclosure - HA-FW1000t, AKG, Final siblings etc. I'd say they are acoustics-focused in their design rather then purely relying on DSP to tune a crap DD driver (or even hybrids) thrown into an ABS housing to sound like a fart cannon (that leads to many MANY TWS are distinctly V-shaped sounding with boomy mid-bass and substance-less mids, while also boosting the presence range for a "modern" signature that can't be farther away from the realm of fidelity).
 
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May 11, 2022 at 3:34 AM Post #45,237 of 61,378
You need to try a really good set of classic earbuds to see what you are missing between the type of buds you are talking about. While the fruit devices are indeed open sounding, they are still limited on the soundstage and separation compared to true earbuds (which is what the Linkbuds are) because they are still directed by a narrow opening into the ear (they are more like an open IEM than a true earbud), whereas an earbud is round, sits outside your ear, and you hear it much like you would a set of speakers. Basically Sony created a set of classic earbuds that are TWS. I honestly don't think they overengineered these at all if you understand what they were trying to achieve with these. I don't think they were trying to copy the Airpods (but just more complicated) at all, but were trying to make true classic earbuds while having TWS.

While classic earbuds are a niche thing nowadays, they are still VERY popular (and for good reason). Take some of the best open back circumaural (over-ear) headphones, and shrink them into IEM size. IEMs and even semi-in-ears cannot match that staging; though semi-in-ear buds can come much closer than IEMs can.

Also, I wouldn't trust those graphs for any open or even semi-in-ear earbuds. Those measurement rigs were set up for IEMs and depend totally on a good seal to give accurate readings. And make no mistake, most TWS that have tips on them DO indeed rely on a seal to get their full sound whether shallow insertion or deep insertion is the intent.

There is no really good solution for measuring open earbuds yet. You can do a search on this thread where there is a conversation about this very thing. The actual bass on the Linkbuds is nothing like it is shown on the graph. Granted, they will never reach Harmon levels of bass (read bass boosted), but this is the nature of open earbuds (though there are a few pairs that do VERY well, and can almost rival IEMs for quantity of bass), and until recently has also been the nature of open back headphones. :) The Linkbuds actually sound a lot like the graph for the Airpods shows. Very full mid-bass and up, with sub-bass roll-off, though it isn't void and IS there.

What makes you think that I don't have experience with classic earbuds? Actually, I've been in and out of these ever since the first Yuin PK series. And my latest acquisition has been at the recommendation of one well-known Mr. ClieOS, who wrote the following about it:
Maria has a mostly neutral sound that slightly tilting toward warmth. Good end-to-end reach with an exceptionally opened soundstage, biggest of any earbuds I ever listened to.

Also, I think I know a bit about the intricacies of measuring such type of earbuds: :wink:
Rose Maria II raw measurements with different levels of seal:

B4O1bbj.jpg

That said, I don't concur with drawing an (imo artificial) line between classic flathead and side-firing earbuds. While there's a justified distinction in terms of acoustics between full-sealing IEMs and open (non-sealing) earbuds, I don't see where that kind of distinction might be between the classic flathead and side-firing types? In my understanding, both types rely on the proximity effect for bass. Which means, the closer they're placed towards your ear canal (but still without seal), the bassier they'll sound - as demonstrated in my measurements of Rose Maria II.

Anyway, don't want to derail this thread any further, I'll just say that I have side-firing TWS earbuds that match if not exceed RM II in soundstage size and openness. Of course, perception of soundstage is subjective and may vary between different listeners, so that's just my personal 2c on that topic.
 
May 11, 2022 at 3:48 AM Post #45,238 of 61,378
What makes you think that I don't have experience with classic earbuds? Actually, I've been in and out of these ever since the first Yuin PK series. And my latest acquisition has been at the recommendation of one well-known Mr. ClieOS, who wrote the following about it:


Also, I think I know a bit about the intricacies of measuring such type of earbuds: :wink:


That said, I don't concur with drawing an (imo artificial) line between classic flathead and side-firing earbuds. While there's a justified distinction in terms of acoustics between full-sealing IEMs and open (non-sealing) earbuds, I don't see where that kind of distinction might be between the classic flathead and side-firing types? In my understanding, both types rely on the proximity effect for bass. Which means, the closer they're placed towards your ear canal (but still without seal), the bassier they'll sound - as demonstrated in my measurements of Rose Maria II.

Anyway, don't want to derail this thread any further, I'll just say that I have side-firing TWS earbuds that match if not exceed RM II in soundstage size and openness. Of course, perception of soundstage is subjective and may vary between different listeners, so that's just my personal 2c on that topic.
thx for the maria ii measurements. I haven't setup my measurement rig on my new laptop yet (which isn't hard, but I run autoeq and it can be hit or miss getting python installed easily.) That 2k spike is a bit too much for me. I still listen to the maria ii frequently but they aren't my favorite bud by a large margin.
 
May 11, 2022 at 4:16 AM Post #45,239 of 61,378
So, as far as TWS adapter, I bought the UTWS5 as soon as it came out, and I used the z1r with them... at the gym. My experience is that it didn't sound better than the XM4, which was a bummer, but I think the true issue was lack of power. The z1r need some power to make them shine. Paired with the Ifi idsd signature, they sounded flipping brilliant. with UTWS5, not so much. I considered going with a more easily powered iem, but that's just another rabbit hole... but I guess this whole hobby is that. My wife gives me the side eye every time something shows up on our porch.
I can understand this. Tried utws5 with Audeze Euclid and I felt is was ok. Planar like power. With my CA Solaris, the utws5 sound great. Unlike with my Sony zx507 Dap, the utws5 gives the Solaris some needed low end authority. Really enjoy the sound from that combo
 
May 11, 2022 at 5:59 AM Post #45,240 of 61,378
Any thoughts on which Earphone Tips (stock or 3rd party) are best with the Fokus Pros?
I use the kbear 07 tips. It gives the Fokus pro a nice punch without congestion or mud. Opens up the soundstage a bit as well as these tips are more of a wide bore tip but really firm, with a firm stem, more firm flange to seal. I was using the final tips but things got a bit too closed in with those.
 

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