Getting into High-End Headphones? (Little intro :P)
Aug 8, 2011 at 2:16 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

K93George

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WARNING!  Long post, but I want to get this right =)
 
Hi guys!

New member here =)  Each time I searched a headphone related issue, debate, from "do headphone cables make a difference"" to "are headphone amps necessary"" all questions a new comer would be asking.  This forum came up each time!  Such interesting discussions, so I joined.

Not here to ask such basic questions though, I already knew the answer by applying my known knowledge in home theatre but it was interesting none the less!

I am seriously thinking of entering the headphone scene, and I want to enter into the deep end :wink:  My research has pointed me to the AKG K702s and I can get them for $369 from the RRP of $599 in Australia.  I am completely open to new ideas but hear me out for now =)

The game plan is:  AKG K702s in the near future, after a bit of conviencing, you know how it can be :wink:
Anyway, for starters I will go with a pair of good headphones such as the 702s, in which will be running off the 1/4" headphone jack of my Onkyo TX-SR606 amp.  This will suffice for the time being, my next step will be a cable upgrade, I want to get it right the first time, so no cheap cables and upgrade if I feel the need in the future.  It has to be good, not to the extent of paying more for the cable then the headphones but the collective cables in my home theatre are around $620-680, that is for everything, from HDMI to RCA cables for the subs, so...  That should give a good estimate.

The most interesting is the headphone amp, I feel the need to do it.  Personally I feel an amp is most definitely needed.  Especially considering that a home theatre amp most likely uses the same circuitry as the main speakers, just "stepped down" so to speak, so 4-16ohm of supported resistance is a large mismatch for the 62ohm K702s.  It may use a dedicated headphone amp which considering I have no idea on the impedence would once again lead to the mismatch and not to mention not so great quality.

I was considering the Burson Audio HA-160, and it will be hard to change my mind, I am quite pleased with it and being locally made makes it even more appealing.

That sums it up, except for the source.  May as well address it.  Currently I have a 6850 GPU, well actually 2 (but that is irrelevant) in my PC which sends a decoded signal to the amp, it actually sounds better then the amp decoding it :/  I am concerned if the Onkyo would do, if it can, a good job of getting this digital stream and converting it to send it out the RCAs to the 160.  It might be worth investing in a high-end sound card otherwise.  What is your personal take on that?

Thanks a tremendous amount, I truly look foward to some replies if anyone bothered reading all this, got to get it right the first time =) 
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 8:25 AM Post #2 of 15
Heya,
 
You want a good dedicated power amp for the K702's.
You want a dedicated external good DAC. Not a sound card. Not a receiver DAC.
Cables are the last thing you should look at.
 
Start reading up on solid state versus tube amps to get an idea of which you might like best.
 
Look at:
 
Schiit Bifrost DAC + Schiit Lyr AMP + AKG Q702.
 
Or if you want to keep it cheaper, look at a Music Streamer II + Little Dot MK III.
 
Very best,
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 9:59 AM Post #3 of 15
Hi MalVeaux!

I don't think I understand what you mean exactly with a power amp. It is a headphone amp and having powered channels I would assume it to be considered a "powered" amp. None the less, I will look into tube vs. SS first thing in the morning. I am ecstatic about getting into headphones. I have had it with not being able to listen to my system at "reference" level because of complaints.

Back to the topic, if I use an external DAC I was thinking to go for the Burson 160D which is essentially the 160 except for having a pre-amp and DAC built in. It is a highly praised unit and I really am one for locally made. None the less I will look into the alternatives but I am sold on your idea of an external DAC and besides, I don't think I have room for a sound card with my plans to go quad GPU, Southern Island GPUs when they are released.

It would be logical to think of the cable last. I didn't buy new cables for my home theatre until after the amp was purchased but I guess the mains can't work at all without an amp lol.

Ok to sleep for me and apologise for any odd mistakes, I typed this with my Desire.
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 10:45 AM Post #4 of 15
I think Malveaux means headphone amp as a power amp would provide too much voltage for the AKGs.  The Burson should be an excellent match to the K702.
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 1:23 PM Post #5 of 15
If your coming from home audio you may be very shocked at how little bass there is with the k702's. These headphones are very analytical  but in my experience they are not a solid all rounder, I consider both the sennheiser hd650 and beyerdynamic dt880 to be much better all around headphones. However what the k701/2 does well it absolutely excels in.
 
Treble will sparkle like you've never heard before but expect unimpactful analytical bass. Whenever I listen to live recordings or accoustic I reach for my k701. Of course you said you already looked into which headphones suite you best so I'm probably totally off on this.
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 11:07 PM Post #6 of 15
Ok, where to start...

I only ever so slightly looked into the entire tube vs SS and it already got to my nerves.  Not many are willing to truly explain themselves in fear of offending someone.  Not exactly the way I roll, I want outright honesty and disregard for the opponent but it seems I need to delve deeper.

From the start it almost appeared it would be an "LCD vs. Plasma" arguement all over again but we all know Plasma's are superior in the right enviroment.  Plasma in low light room = Tube with highly efficient speakers :p  Maybe not, but it seems to be the case.

In the end, when I take a step back and a more logical and unbiased approach to the entire tube vs. SS it appears that each type of technology is trying to do the same thing with different methods (LCD vs. Plasma?)  It is clear where one type belongs, I can't for the life of me imagine tube amps being used with speakers that are under the 90s in sensitivity.  It would seem that tube amps have this so called dynamic range that a solid state amp can't reach because they don't push the driver far beyond the first 1 watt?  

This seems that this is more dependent on the type of speaker you have.  I see this as, if I had a speaker with 100dB/1w a tube amp would do.  Why does the SS get the kick with highly efficient speakers, you would think having the extra power it pushes the speaker further but I guess the more movement of the cone the more you miss those miniscule details while the cone is in between its excursion.

Which brings the point, because the amp has a wider power range does that mean it can't be suited towards the smaller power output?  Then again, it may be a waste to buy a 300 w/rms Stereo amp if it is to be used for only 1-8w.

How this relates to headphones is even more interesting because a SS headphone amp is only meant to put out a small amount of power, and the Burson, I feel can't be beat for that price.  All this info and you are all leaving it up to me :wink:  Care to share some points about tube and SS amps because I could have missed the mark by a long shot.     
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 11:15 PM Post #7 of 15
Heya,
 
I have a solid state and tube amp. Each for something different. The Shure SRH940 are my headphone of choice when it comes to detail and clarity associated with acoustic, female vocals, jazz, indie, folk and classical. See my signature for a link to my full review of the SRH940 if you want more information on that. On that kind of headphone, where detail is critical, I only use solid state amplification. I find my tube amp adds sound that shouldn't be there in the critical/analytical detail setting which is why I like acoustic/vocal in the first place. Tubes add a sound that is not recorded to music. Some love it, I know I do, and some won't use it for pure high fidelity due to that. Tubes add what one could say is a warmth, a bloomy sound, or to me, a bit of a hall/echo type effect that I notice. It warms up and sounds awesome with headphones like my Ultrasone Pro 900's and electronic music, I go tube 100% with that, as I love the sound it combines to make. But with my SRH940's and jazz or acoustic, I can tell immediately when I'm on a tube and want my solid state amp so I can get just detail, no added stuff, just what should be there. So maybe take that as a hard opinion. I like both. But not for the same thing.
 
I imagine you want the 702's because of their detail and critical listening nature. So maybe for you a solid state amp might be the better option in general. But tubes are fun, I must warn, since rolling tubes allows you to change the sound of your sound stage and signature in general without changing amps. Keep that in mind too. It's part of the fun, well, mainly why, people get tube amps.
 
Very best,
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 11:35 PM Post #8 of 15
Thank you for the quick reply =)

I would like to point out, and I can't believe I missed this.  I am sure to get some weird faces from it.  I have more interest in the equipment then the music.  It is sound reproduction that has my interest, not so much the music.  Which brings the point of, I want to get as close as possible to neutral.  The headphone scene is here to get me close enough before I start my long path of major upgrades out of the common consumer purchased equipment to some high-end if not elite gear, years done the track.  It will take time but I want it :wink:  Of course a room will have to be designed for it so that will come along eventually.

I am just suprised no one has mentioned anything else besides the AKGs, I looked at Sennhiesers flagship model and that is one steep price.  It would have been the difference between, custom-built computer or headphones?  Computers = number 1 for me :wink:

You are correct, I want the K702s for the acclaimed nature of these headphones.  It seems I might be set with my original ideas.  Anything else I should take into consideration?  Is the entire "break-in" or usage period a true phenomenon?  I know it did make a difference with the Plasma and its image retention but with my speakers...  I still wonder if I just got use to the sound but I guess others who heard it first and later did say it sounded different, that was without me saying anything.  What is your take on speakers changing sound from being simply used.  I have experienced it but is it true?

colmustard, while I do have a substantial amount of low-end power I try to keep it neutral.  If the song has overwhelming bass, then so be it but I want to know if the headphones actually lack bass or if they are neutral and many assume my system is just overwhelmed with bass?  For comparison I have CX870 earphones and compared to my set the home theatre just has a substantial amount more of dynamic room on the lows.  It can go from nothing to "tearing" the vocals if it is bass heavy/ edited for bass, etc.  The earphones have some respectable bass but when the song or movie calls for it, it just doesn't compare.  On your average song, the home theatre might come in lower in bass then the earphones.
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 11:52 PM Post #10 of 15
Heya,
 
Burn in is something you either believe you hear, or don't. I'm on the fence. I think it's more a phenomenon of growing accustomed to a sound. I swear my Ultrasone Pro 900's sound different after several hundred hours put into them (mostly in the treble, being less piercing at high volume). But my SRH940's haven't changed at all. I think it's just in our ears. It's a mystical thing, a ritual if you will, not something that can be measured or has been measured to a degree that scientifically proves it. So don't worry about burn in.
 
The K701 and K702 (only difference being the detachable cord) are pretty flat headphones with great sound stage. I think in the price range, not much is going to be that neutral. Just understand that a lot of pure reproduction has to do with an incredibly good DAC and an AMP that doesn't alter the sound nor add noise. Some people have $1000+ setups that power a pair of $200 headphones due to that.
 
Anyhow, based on you saying you want technical and outstanding equipment, and it's not about the music, you should probably just skip spending hundreds on dynamic headphones and just leap right into electrostatic headphones and call it a day.
 
Very best,
 
Aug 8, 2011 at 11:57 PM Post #11 of 15
Thanks once again,

I will continue my research but I think I hyped myself up for these AKG K702s.  Off I go, and I will definitely be back to mention what I think of these headphones, considering I will be using them at first, without the dedicated DAC, pre-amp and amp that the 160D uses; instead, I will not be sure what to expect going off the headphone jack of my AV/ Reciever.  Well, I will only use it for a short period...  So it shouldn't matter too much :)
 
Aug 9, 2011 at 12:10 AM Post #12 of 15


Quote:
Thanks once again,

I will continue my research but I think I hyped myself up for these AKG K702s.  Off I go, and I will definitely be back to mention what I think of these headphones, considering I will be using them at first, without the dedicated DAC, pre-amp and amp that the 160D uses; instead, I will not be sure what to expect going off the headphone jack of my AV/ Reciever.  Well, I will only use it for a short period...  So it shouldn't matter too much :)


Heya,
 
Pray your receiver has a good DAC and that it's not noisy or adds noise. You will hear it immediately with the K701/2's.
 
Check out the Schiit Bifrost or DACMagic as mentioned when you're ready to go dedicated for a good price.
 
Very best,
 
 
Aug 9, 2011 at 12:45 AM Post #13 of 15
I could be praying day in and day out, I don't think it will make a difference.  I am worried but it will only be for a short period.  I looked at the DACMagic and I am not impressed with the lower resolution of 96Khz, the 160D accepts 192 through the coaxial and 96 through USB which the DACMagic only does 48.  Not to say the sampling rate is the most important feature but...  It costs a bit and I would suspect it to be capable of it :/ 

Next up is the Shiit Bifrost.  It does appear to have a better DAC then the 160D.  The frequency response is concerning lol 2Hz-100KHz, -1dB vs. 5Hz (-0.3dB) - 35Khz (-1dB) but in the Bursons defense that is also what the amp alone does.  Although the DAC is only capable of that also if bought seperately.  Some other noteworthy specs are the better SnR of the Bifrost; 108 vs 98.  Besides that THD is both under 0.001%.  In total, better SnR and better frequency response.  If I was to purchase this Bifrost I would not go fro the 160 amp as it is only capable of what the 160D is.  It seems they pair the specs of the amps and DACs.

Both are high quality but realistically the Bifrost will get me an extra 4-5Khz that the headphones are capable of if paired with the right amp.  The only notable thing is that great SnR, that has me interested.

As for the AV/ Reciever the only info I have is a frequency response of 5Hz-100KHz +1dB-3dB and 0.08% THD from 20Hz-20KHz but that is at the rated power of 180w 4ohm (impedence of my speakers).  SnR of 106dB (LINE, IHF-A) I think IHF-A stands for Institute of High Fidelity and is a standard for measuring Amplifiers..?

All this probably has no relation to the phones out, I need to find some more info out.   
 
Aug 9, 2011 at 9:40 AM Post #14 of 15
Sounds like your going about things the right way! I don't personally feel that the k701/2 lacks bass, I actually love it. I've never heard bass extend lower than on the k701. But musically speaking the lack of bass presence makes it not as engaging for some genres.
 
The k701/2 is special for what it does for its price. It is very neutral, and that sparkly, airy open soundstage almost seems unnatural. Best of luck to you 
bigsmile_face.gif

 
Aug 30, 2011 at 5:09 AM Post #15 of 15
I finally got my AKG K702s!

I am well impressed with the build quality and comfort of the headphones.  The soundstage is great but I am sort of let down, and I do mean sort of. 

They are definitely flat on the freq, that is why I got them I guess...  I am not sure what I am trying to complain about and I might just end up rambling on, as I write this I have listened to them for around 1 -2 hours and while they do appear to be "opening up", I will be switching straight back to my main speakers to clarify it isn't in my head.

I am oddly in love with these headphones though...  Compared to the CX870s they are far more pronounced and certainly don't distort easily.  I have set a max volume on my reciever just to prevent myself going deaf =O 

It will take time to get use to the headphone scene, as I still think of a "reference" volume on my main speakers, where they sound best at, anything under and the power hungry speakers sound laid back.  These headphones sound quite the same at any volume and can get dangerously loud.  I did get a bit of distortion when fiddling with the bass, that was at an insane +10dB on the bass level, and they responded with some head banging bass, not what I want though =)

To sum up my short experience with these interesting headphones, I prefer the sound to the CX870s, the bass of the senns may be "loud" but it is no way near the control of these K702s and I respect the detail of each freq band that these headphones can put out, am I hearing things that I never heard before?  Sure, nothing mind blowing as my main speakers were quite good to start off with, just some slight echo and other small details that the speakers just couldn't put out.  The bass level is lower then that of my mains without the subs, it is similar to there sound with a crossover set to 40Hz (no sub)

I love the AKG K702s and am trying seriously hard to pick on them, as I am as neutral as them, I don't pick sides, even on my own purchases :wink:  And despite the lively and insane dynamic bass my system can put out, I oddly might use these headphones for my main listening.

What I have learnt is that if these headphones sound quite similar to my mains, scarely close.  The only difference being with subs, my main set has a lot more bass, of course.  That and floor stands are a tad heavy on the treble, just a tad and that brings the point of reference volume, too high and the treble gets harsh, too low and they sound all warm.

AKG K702s Gets my +1  
 

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