Getting into Audiophilia

[zantetsuken]

hi guys im a complete noobie on the site, ive read a couple of threads and i came up with a few questions.
1. what sort of difference are you looking at if u compare a standard CD player which might be about 50 bux compared to say high end ones which cost 500+? and what makes them that expensive. would this be better than a computer as a source? if so how much better?
2. if i wanted to build myself a decent quality system (digital + Analogue) including loud speakers as well as quality headphones what would it comprise of and what sort of costs would be appropriate to spend on them
3. what sort of overall cost am i looking at if i want to put it all together and any recommendations on which products to look out for?
4. Where would these components be available in sydney if any of u are in sydney and have experience on where you can get good quality stuff at a reasonable rate.
5. if there are any educational links that are useful for reading up on high quality audio etc, ive so far looked at audiologica and tangentsofts pages, but other than that any links would be appreciated.


thanks!

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zantetsuken /img/forum/go_quote.gif hi guys im a complete noobie on the site, ive read a couple of threads and i came up with a few questions. 1. what sort of difference are you looking at if u compare a standard CD player which might be about 50 bux compared to say high end ones which cost 500+? and what makes them that expensive. would this be better than a computer as a source? if so how much better? 2. if i wanted to build myself a decent quality system (digital + Analogue) including loud speakers as well as quality headphones what would it comprise of and what sort of costs would be appropriate to spend on them 3. what sort of overall cost am i looking at if i want to put it all together and any recommendations on which products to look out for? 4. Where would these components be available in sydney if any of u are in sydney and have experience on where you can get good quality stuff at a reasonable rate. 5. if there are any educational links that are useful for reading up on high quality audio etc, ive so far looked at audiologica and tangentsofts pages, but other than that any links would be appreciated. thanks!

You're standing at the gates of Hell, begging for admission. Walk away while you still can.

Or at least set your own parameters. Budget? Around here, there are plenty of people who would consider $500 enough money to acquire a just barely acceptable cd player. Read this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/hi-...layers-319529/

then decide how much you're willing to invest in a system and start from there. The truth is that a really good system that will bring your music to life and bring you great pleasure for many years doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. But you have to start out with the kind of music you listen to, the room you'll listen in and the objectives you want your system to meet (do you want realistic pipe-organ bass?), because you can spend as much as will spend, if you don't focus.

Tim

 

[zantetsuken]

overall, i have little knowledge on the costs associated with systems here in aus, since ive mostly only seen costs for US, im happy to spend ~3000ish on a good system maybe even up to 4000, i listen to mostly Rnb/Hiphop/Trance/Dance/Electronica in terms of genre and i really like my bass to be deep/strong and outstanding as opposed to the treble/vocal frequencies. im looking to spend as little as i can while still gaining maximum bang for the buck occasionally i also like some general relaxing music like MOS Chillout sessions and Cafe Del Mar etc..so something that would also serve that purpose. i know its a matter of personal preference, but i have little experience in high audio so wanted some opinion i suppose from someone who has experience in a broader range of equipment. I also will be getting an electric guitar and i already have a synthesizer which i like to make and record music with so wanted to know on some possible set ups with that as well.

 

[jujulio]

I am a newbie too, and i read an interesting thread stating computer-based (i.e hard drive) music sounds better than CD because of a "jitter" matter, which involves clock sync if i got it right, just to let you know if you already have a computer then rip your music with lossless formats, and if you need more storage go for external hard drive. Then i d recommend (tell me if i am wrong) USB DAC, this way you'll avoid the internal noise of the computer.

does someone remeber this thread?

 

[zantetsuken]

i think i know what thread u are referring to, i looked it up and i dont think i understood too much and i read it too briefly im guna take a look into it a little more deeper this time, as for my comp specs im running an AMD64 3500+ with stock on board sound card...creative 24bit live i think directly hooked up to logitech 5.1 speakers, ive tried to enhance this by installing SRS Sandbox which seems to make the music better. sadly i only came to realise that most of my ripped music is in mp3 at the moment but i did ensure that it was ~224-320kbps in between that range i think my lowest is 192kbps, its probably best to re rip them into FLAC's yea? or am i looking at a little difference here?. also this might be a dumb question but...on my computer i seem to be able to change my settings from 16 bit/48Khz-->24bit/48Khz but when i do this...my speakers make weird noises lol...they dont play the music...why is that?

 

[tfarney]

In that price range and with that choice of music, I'd personally go with a mid-range CD or DVD player. I'd also go for a midrange, but pretty high-powered receiver or integrated amp. Power depends on the speakers of course, and that's where I'd put most of my money - either into some large, floor-standing speakers with serious bass extension and dynamic range, or a bookshelf/sub combination.

If you want specific recommendations, here what I'd do with your budget --

Source - A decent DVD player. Doesn't matter much, you won't be using the DAC as the receiver I'm recommending is all digital. An Oppo will do, about $200.

Receiver - Panasonic SA-XR57. Yes, it is 7.1 HT receiver. Ignore that. You're going to set it up to send 2 amps (200 watts) to stereo, or if you buy bi-wire speakers 200 watts each to the woofers and 100 watts each to the tweeters), about $250.

Speakers - you've got lots of choices here, because you've only spent $450 of your $2 - 3 k budget. You don't really need to spend it all, though. I'd go with the Infinity P362. They'll fill a big room with great range, dynamics and sound stage for $450.

To make the most of all of that, and make it sound better than a much more expensive system in the average den, you'll need to buy some room treatments - about $200 should do if you're at all creative.

You have $1100 to $2100 left. Spend it on music.

Now you'll get lots of varying opinion over the weekend, including folks who will hate my choices and love others, and probably a few that will think there is nothing even approaching high-end sound that can be had within your budget. Don't listen to them. Hell don't listen to me. Go listen to the music and the equipment. Just don't go out there thinking you have to spend X dollars. In a world full of rapidly-advancing (especially digital) technologies and world markets, all price/performance bets are off.

Tim

 

[zantetsuken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif In that price range and with that choice of music, I'd personally go with a mid-range CD or DVD player. I'd also go for a midrange, but pretty high-powered receiver or integrated amp. Power depends on the speakers of course, and that's where I'd put most of my money - either into some large, floor-standing speakers with serious bass extension and dynamic range, or a bookshelf/sub combination. If you want specific recommendations, here what I'd do with your budget -- Source - A decent DVD player. Doesn't matter much, you won't be using the DAC as the receiver I'm recommending is all digital. An Oppo will do, about $200. Receiver - Panasonic SA-XR57. Yes, it is 7.1 HT receiver. Ignore that. You're going to set it up to send 2 amps (200 watts) to stereo, or if you buy bi-wire speakers 200 watts each to the woofers and 100 watts each to the tweeters), about $250. Speakers - you've got lots of choices here, because you've only spent $450 of your $2 - 3 k budget. You don't really need to spend it all, though. I'd go with the Infinity P362. They'll fill a big room with great range, dynamics and sound stage for $450. To make the most of all of that, and make it sound better than a much more expensive system in the average den, you'll need to buy some room treatments - about $200 should do if you're at all creative. You have $1100 to $2100 left. Spend it on music. Now you'll get lots of varying opinion over the weekend, including folks who will hate my choices and love others, and probably a few that will think there is nothing even approaching high-end sound that can be had within your budget. Don't listen to them. Hell don't listen to me. Go listen to the music and the equipment. Just don't go out there thinking you have to spend X dollars. In a world full of rapidly-advancing (especially digital) technologies and world markets, all price/performance bets are off. Tim

thanks for the idea! it was very helpful, what do u think of the system you suggested in comparison to the computer as a source hooked-->to a USB DAC and so forth as jujulio mentioned?, and also when you talk about room treatments what sort of treatments are we talking bout (remember im fairly new to the game here lol) also i will probably have this in my own personal room which means there will be other furniture as i cant dedicate a room for music alone will this be a major problem? oh and also u lost me here "An Oppo will do" could you specify what that is lolz. what's the difference between a DAC and a reciever?

 

[jujulio]

From what i was told, the better the amp, the more unforgiving it is with low quality mp3, you would hear some kind of compression artifacts...but 320 kbps is a good start...though flac sure are better but you have to pay the price in storage

like you i am a newbie, i am currently looking for a USB dac and an amp for my senn's HD650. Ithink i would go for KECES for the DAc and for the amp i would have to test it, to make my choice between Solid State and tube amps...

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zantetsuken /img/forum/go_quote.gif thanks for the idea! it was very helpful, what do u think of the system you suggested in comparison to the computer as a source hooked-->to a USB DAC and so forth as jujulio mentioned?, and also when you talk about room treatments what sort of treatments are we talking bout (remember im fairly new to the game here lol) also i will probably have this in my own personal room which means there will be other furniture as i cant dedicate a room for music alone will this be a major problem? oh and also u lost me here "An Oppo will do" could you specify what that is lolz. what's the difference between a DAC and a reciever?

I think computer-as-source is a great way to go, and I've gone that way myself. I don't think jitter is the issue though. You can have plenty of that in a computer-based system as well, but probably not enough to ever hear it. There are a couple of threads about jitter going on right now. The data doesn't support audible jitter, even in pretty mediocre equipment, so I wouldn't worry about it. The reason to go to a computer for your source, in my opinion, is convenience. I sit here as we speak, with my entire collection of cds laid out in front of me in iTunes. I can sort it by title, artist or genre, set it to a global shuffle that will take me from Presley to Costello to Coltrane, make mixes as fast as I can drag and drop, and burn a back up copy of anything I like with a single click. It's a powerful tool. And all of my CDs are in binders that fitt neatly beneath my desk. It rocks.

I ripped some stuff at 320kbps and some as lossless. I think my terrier could hear the difference, but I couldn't. I re-ripped the 320 stuff to lossless anyway. Why? HDD space is so cheap (I got 500 gig drives for $119 each), why not?

I can definitely hear 128kbps on some material, though.

By the way, I also think there are some very valid questions being raised about the value you get as you go up the price range on DACs. Read the threads in this forum and the computer-as-source forum for more info. I'm sure it depends on your computer and its soundcard but, for example, I use a Mac laptop and the sonics are quiet and quite good. I intend to try DACs out, when the time comes, on trial, and return them if they don't make a clearly audible improvement over the Mac. In the meantime, I'm feeding my amp straight from a line out, which means I'm going through the Mac's DAC, but not its headphone amp, to my hifi amp. And it sound good!

It will have to sound better to get any of my money. I'd rather be buying nearfield monitors or music!

Tim

 

[bigshot]

I've heard a lot of CD players, and I wouldn't recommend putting your money there. Put at least half your budget into your speakers. That's where your money will make a difference.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zantetsuken /img/forum/go_quote.gif overall, i have little knowledge on the costs associated with systems here in aus, since ive mostly only seen costs for US, im happy to spend ~3000ish on a good system maybe even up to 4000, i listen to mostly Rnb/Hiphop/Trance/Dance/Electronica in terms of genre and i really like my bass to be deep/strong and outstanding as opposed to the treble/vocal frequencies....

If you are really into dance music you should be looking at a turntable based system as most of the best material is still not even available on CD and unlikely to be. Although more stuff is available for download these days and a lot of dance music is increasingly played live on laptops especially in hot countries like Oz, if you want to get into all the classic stuff of the last 20 years, vinyl is still the only way to go.

Depending on how much you want to get into the production side of things, which your guitar and synth suggest to me you do, then look no further than the Technics SL1200.

You can mod these to make them more "audiophile" with tonearm and psu upgrades from the like of Origin Live
and KABUSA, and better isolation from specialist companies like ISONOE .

Combine these with a good quality budget conscious soundcard, like those offered by M-Audio which have some great bundled music software like Ableton and you'll be able to get audiophile quality sound from your computer and record yourself as well.

Plug it all into a decent budget amp / phonostage like those offered by Cambridge Audio or NAD and some good quality Hi-Fi speakers, or else a good pair of Active monitors like the new Quads, and you'll have a set-up that will sound great with the music you like and also allow you to take your first tentative steps into producing your own without frying your expensive set-up.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I'd also recommend putting most of the budget into speakers. Your musical tastes lend themselves to a turntable - have you considered one?

High-end CD players are nice, but not a good place to put money. CD players change every few years with new chips being introduced. What might be state of the art today won't be in two years. Whereas Rega has been making the Planar 3/P3 in pretty much the same way for 30. In my opinion, you're better off buying a modest CD player every few years than an expensive one now and watching its resale go over the cliff when the latest 'n' greatest shows it up in 2010.

Most importantly, buy used. I don't know if you use Audiogon in Australia or if there's a local alternative, but find out. Most audiophile gear holds up well and is babied by its owner. You can find terrific gear for 50% or less from retail even.

 

[bigshot]

...while the speakers I paid an awful lot for nearly 20 years ago are still performing great...

See ya
Steve

 

[LeeMark]

Better to buy a two piece, CD transport and a DAC, upgrade the DAC when needed. or just go for a good SACD player. Spend most on speakers and net on the amp. I have been upgrading my system for 20 years and every upgrade, amp vs. source vs. speakers made an appreciable difference. As your ears are trained you will become much more sensitive to each change. Lee

 

[zantetsuken]

hi guys!, some great advice here, in response yes i have considered vinyl and i dont mind going there if there is greater opportunity there..only barrier for me is i absolutely know nothing about turntables and how they work, if i wanted to get a turntable and set it all up what else other than the turntable do i need?

if theres a link that tells me what things like cartridges and stuff do (i don't know what that is even yet), and a second barrier is i don't have any vinyl collection yet most of my collection is either as mp3/flac on computer or as CD's. I don't mind getting vinyl though, i suppose the best places for that is online any links on good pages for retail vinyl will be helpful ill go check those out as well, also umm i don't think we have an audiogon in Oz, i have no idea of anything remotely similar either if anyone knows good places to buy cheap equipment(i don't mind getting used stuff either) forward me some links id appreciate it. as so far i only know of eBay on which ive seen some stuff but even they seem to be only very limited. memepool i like your idea since i do want to get into dj'ing as well i was considering them as well but i was unsure on how good they were, what would be the approximate cost of your setup if i were to build it? would it be a good idea to use the Technics for just enjoying music as well as dj'ing, or should i have a dedicated system just for my own music? and a separate turntable for dj'ing?, remember the setup is mostly for listening to music at high quality the recording is only a side thing as a hobby not really a professional or anything just yet lol.

Oh btw i am running a MSI K8N Diamond Motherboard with on board audio "Creative Sound Blaster live! 24-bit audio capable of 24bit/96KHz, 100db SNR with a digital output its got 2 S/P outputs ones square (TOSLINK i think?) and the other looks like a RCA plug...i think thats what u call coaxial?(unsure)..etc" how does this compare with the M-Audio Sound cards? will it make a significant difference? oh and its connected to some Logitech X-530z at the moment (pretty crappy compared to the stuff u guys have)