General IEM Measurements Discussions
Apr 1, 2019 at 2:10 PM Post #16 of 196
Agree.
Since that 12.7mm is rough average, will explain why most measurements taken from that distance have peaks further at the end of spectrum. What I`m wondering though is the shape of human ear-channel vs. tube (circular) shape. I have taken impressions from my own ears and my small ear-channel is rather oval-flat shaped after tip edge - wonder how this affects resonant peaks? Will making coupler "average" shape of ear-channel make noticeable differences in "average perceived" resonant peak locations? Interesting subject...

Believe it or not, I have considered making my own couplers using MY ear own impressions. Everything would be perfectly set up for me - the insertion depth, ear tip size, shape of canal, difference between left and right side, etc.

Of course my graphs wouldn't help others, but then again I am really only making my graphs for me (when tuning for example). So ultimately it would literally be the best thing I could possibly do for myself.
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 2:27 PM Post #17 of 196
Agree.
Since that 12.7mm is rough average, will explain why most measurements taken from that distance have peaks further at the end of spectrum. What I`m wondering though is the shape of human ear-channel vs. tube (circular) shape. I have taken impressions from my own ears and my small ear-channel is rather oval-flat shaped after tip edge - wonder how this affects resonant peaks? Will making coupler "average" shape of ear-channel make noticeable differences in "average perceived" resonant peak locations? Interesting subject...
In my experience, everything makes some kind of difference :wink: (Another development in some of the newer models is trying to account for the fact that the human eardrum isn't normal to the axis of the canal, but rather at an angle. Probably there's some evolutionary advantage to the latter.) But I'd bet money the overwhelming effect comes from the longitudinal mode, i.e., the total distance the acoustic wave has to travel from driver to eardrum.

...anytime I see people soldering BA drivers and other tiny stuff, it reminds me how much I suck at this(and how dumb I was for deciding to get lead free solder when I already suck with the easy one).
So happy to hear I'm not the only one that destroys stuff with lead-free solder. I swear the melting point of electronic equipment is inversely proportional to its price. And it seems anything made by Apple now has a special chip to permanently brick the hardware if a soldering iron is detected anywhere within a 15 ft radius :wink:
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 2:30 PM Post #18 of 196
Believe it or not, I have considered making my own couplers using MY ear own impressions. Everything would be perfectly set up for me - the insertion depth, ear tip size, shape of canal, difference between left and right side, etc.

Of course my graphs wouldn't help others, but then again I am really only making my graphs for me (when tuning for example). So ultimately it would literally be the best thing I could possibly do for myself.
Good points: it is difficult to compare graphs not only because of different softwares but also because of the diffferent hardwares used. I like raw data as I can read between the lines. For example, there is a decent match between my measurements and the ones by audiobudget...these similarities are good enough to get the point.

Biodegraded and I use the same coupler and software (eartips and insertion depth may vary), but our graphs are pretty similar. Note that 230 Hz artefact kink on his rig.

ZbomdKR.jpg
 
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Apr 1, 2019 at 3:37 PM Post #19 of 196
Yes. A very specific reason.
I've mentioned this issue before on @crinacle's thread. I prefer to just seat all IEMs at whatever depth naturally results from the given size of the tip and taper on the coupler nozzle. I don't fight to achieve an 8 kHz resonance peak; you'd never do that when listening to an IEM - you'd just insert to whatever depth is natural for your ears and then decide whether you liked them or not.

There has to be an implicit understanding that resonance peaks are going to vary from person to person anyway as a result of differences in ear anatomy. But it's important to know 1) that resonance peaks exist and 2) roughly where they are (higher frequency peaks are typically better, because our hearing gets less sensitive up there and energy content tends to eventually roll off up there anyway).

If we were to artificially fix all resonance peaks at 8 kHz, we'd never know how 2) varied from one IEM to another.

Agree.
Since that 12.7mm is rough average, will explain why most measurements taken from that distance have peaks further at the end of spectrum. What I`m wondering though is the shape of human ear-channel vs. tube (circular) shape. I have taken impressions from my own ears and my small ear-channel is rather oval-flat shaped after tip edge - wonder how this affects resonant peaks? Will making coupler "average" shape of ear-channel make noticeable differences in "average perceived" resonant peak locations? Interesting subject...

Ok a get it. In case of tube coupler I’ve found out that I don’t have to force anything too much inside as long as you have right length of tube.

@CoiL where have you found average of 12.7mm?
I’ve found only 25mm as average length of ear canal. My coupler is probably somewhere between roughly 20-25mm long but don’t know actual insertion length. Will have to measure it.
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 3:46 PM Post #20 of 196
Ok a get it. In case of tube coupler I’ve found out that I don’t have to force anything too much inside as long as you have right length of tube.

@CoiL where have you found average of 12.7mm?
I’ve found only 25mm as average length of ear canal. My coupler is probably somewhere between roughly 20-25mm long but don’t know actual insertion length. Will have to measure it.
That's about right. Then just figure that some portion of that (in the case of smaller, thinner, IEMs like an Etymotic, a sizable portion) is going to be taken up by the IEM itself.
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 6:43 PM Post #21 of 196
I really wish I could get one of those 711 coupler/microphone setups. I’m in the US and I’ve tried using Taobao but I just can’t get it working right with any Google translators. I mean, sure I can read the description but I’m talking actually creating an account and buying something/checking out. :frowning2:
Believe it or not, I have considered making my own couplers using MY ear own impressions. Everything would be perfectly set up for me - the insertion depth, ear tip size, shape of canal, difference between left and right side, etc.

Of course my graphs wouldn't help others, but then again I am really only making my graphs for me (when tuning for example). So ultimately it would literally be the best thing I could possibly do for myself.
i also tried diy couplers.. much work and very difficult to achieve a reliable one.
my rig evolution: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crinacles-iem-fr-measurement-database.830062/page-27#post-13702472

most of the stuff was bought at taobao, through an agent (first Mistertao, then Bhiner, and now using Superbuy).

I usually rely on a wall of text below the graph with 20 thousand warnings about not trusting the graph in any way, you know the sort of stuff that nobody ever reads.
about compensation, I like it raw :imp:

talking about the EARS, last week I was trying to add layers between the mic and the silicon ear, so that the resonance would be closer to 3kHz instead of being more around 5kHz by default which makes absolutely no sense. I found the right distance, tried a bunch of materials but kept failing to get a seal, so I made something with some thermo-tube thingy to go around the mic and seal things on that end properly, but after moving the mic around too much, one wire broke free. :weary:
so I took my soldering iron and after a few minutes, I had successfully removed the 2 other wires while failing to attach the third one, and burned the mic probably beyond recovery(and my thumb a little). we have a winner! \o/
anytime I see people soldering BA drivers and other tiny stuff, it reminds me how much I suck at this(and how dumb I was for deciding to get lead free solder when I already suck with the easy one). so now I'm scared of trying to do the mod on the other ear. I've effectively achieved negative productivity over the week. oh well, maybe I'll be brave again next week.
+1 raw for me too, please
ouch. i've heard some flux helps with lead free tin fast soldering (together with good temperature control station). if you get the courage to replace the mic and to mod the other ear, please tell us your experience.


my problem now is how to keep the iem and tip inside the coupler firmly. many tips slide off the coupler, so it's difficult to measure and to achieve desired depth insertion.
i can use either a solder tool stand with clips, either a metallic press with rubber end arm on top of a wood cube.
the rubber foot on top of the iem creates too much noise and distortion at low frequencies. i've tried minimal or full contact, similar results. i've added some putty and soborthane and i'm going to try now, but guess the opposite could work better: rigidity from the arm to the cube stand.
when using the spades (and clip) from the solder stand, to hold the iem by its nozzle, the result is better, but still noise and distortion at low frequencies, and it's more uncomfortable to use.
i wonder what's the quiz, used in professional press kits, to avoid lows distortion.
prensa_01.jpg prensa_02.jpg
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 8:33 PM Post #22 of 196
I'd be willing to permanently loan my Monster Turbines to the community for the purposes of measurement comparisons. These are vented dynamic driver IEMs. Their amplitude vs frequency response won't be to everybody's taste (they're fairly bass heavy), but they also have very low THD, which would make them an interesting reference point for more than just the standard amplitude vs frequency comparisons between couplers/rigs.

I would love to have @hakuzen be the first recipient, because I find the same issues with damping the IEM in the coupler. Using foam tips helps a lot, but with any type of silicone tip in the coupler, the IEM itself vibrates during any stepped-sine THD measurements (and even during regular sine sweeps). Probably anything you clamp it with is just going to vibrate too. This might be one good argument for a complete anthropomorphic dummy head - because at least there the IEM would be held in roughly the same way it would in a real ear. (Although I've often wondered how the dummy would let you know if the IEM weren't seated and sealed properly?!)

@hakuzen - If you're willing and based in the US, please feel free to pm me your address. Outside the US, we'll have to think a bit more. It's not so much the financial risk of loss, but if our reference pair of IEMs goes missing, well, so does our reference. And that's sort of irreplaceable, because there's typically quite a bit of unit variance from model to model with all these headphones.
 
Apr 1, 2019 at 11:11 PM Post #23 of 196
I'd be willing to permanently loan my Monster Turbines to the community for the purposes of measurement comparisons. These are vented dynamic driver IEMs. Their amplitude vs frequency response won't be to everybody's taste (they're fairly bass heavy), but they also have very low THD, which would make them an interesting reference point for more than just the standard amplitude vs frequency comparisons between couplers/rigs.

I would love to have @hakuzen be the first recipient, because I find the same issues with damping the IEM in the coupler. Using foam tips helps a lot, but with any type of silicone tip in the coupler, the IEM itself vibrates during any stepped-sine THD measurements (and even during regular sine sweeps). Probably anything you clamp it with is just going to vibrate too. This might be one good argument for a complete anthropomorphic dummy head - because at least there the IEM would be held in roughly the same way it would in a real ear. (Although I've often wondered how the dummy would let you know if the IEM weren't seated and sealed properly?!)

@hakuzen - If you're willing and based in the US, please feel free to pm me your address. Outside the US, we'll have to think a bit more. It's not so much the financial risk of loss, but if our reference pair of IEMs goes missing, well, so does our reference. And that's sort of irreplaceable, because there's typically quite a bit of unit variance from model to model with all these headphones.
thanks, i'm not in the US, i live in madrid (spain). guess we can find the best way to avoid custom issues, but you are right: we have to think it a bit more.
edit: no shipping issues here (rate of 2 missing packages of 1000, approx.)

yea, the anthropomorphic dummy heads have other caveats.

i've found some tips which stay into the coupler. foams, white silicon short narrow bore tips which came with magaosi k5 (filled with foam, to keep iem nozzle straight), and "stetotip" (thick silicone/rubber, narrow bore) used in stethoscopes.
the problem is there are noticeable differences in frequency response and distortion, depending of the bore width, shape (thickness of bore walls), and material; mainly at highs resonances, but also at upper mids (2kHz).
here are the measurements (added 2 tips which slide out of the coupler: spiral dots, and kz starlines).
tip_rolling.png
edit: filters grey (ULF), clear (LF), gunmetal (MH/HF)

so we'd need to set a reference type of tips as well. foams use to tame some highs. i prefer the "stetotip" response, it's nearer to silicones. and it can be used either with iec711 couplers or vinyl/silicone tubes (check my rig evolution, the tip is showed at pics).
anyway, i'll try to find best method to keep the tips into the coupler without adding lows distortion.
i plan to measure every iem using several kind of tips (and also using different source output impedances). rolling cables is not necessary for measuring frequency response nor distortion (no significant changes, i've tried).
 
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Apr 1, 2019 at 11:49 PM Post #24 of 196
thanks, i'm not in the US, i live in madrid (spain). guess we can find the best way to avoid custom issues, but you are right: we have to think it a bit more.

yea, the anthropomorphic dummy heads have other caveats.

i've found some tips which stay into the coupler. foams, white silicon short narrow bore tips which came with magaosi k5 (filled with foam, to keep iem nozzle straight), and "stetotip" (thick silicone/rubber, narrow bore) used in stethoscopes.
the problem is there are noticeable differences in frequency response and distortion, depending of the bore width, shape (thickness of bore walls), and material; mainly at highs resonances, but also at upper mids (2kHz).
here are the measurements (added 2 tips which slide out of the coupler: spiral dots, and kz starlines).

so we'd need to set a reference type of tips as well. foams use to tame some highs. i prefer the "stetotip" response, it's nearer to silicones. and it can be used either with iec711 couplers or vinyl/silicone tubes (check my rig evolution, the tip is showed at pics).
anyway, i'll try to find best method to keep the tips into the coupler without adding lows distortion.
i plan to measure every iem using several kind of tips (and also using different source output impedances). rolling cables is not necessary for measuring frequency response nor distortion (no significant changes, i've tried).

What about not even using a tip? The nozzle of the IEM could be attached directly to the 711 coupler using blue tac or maybe a short section of silicone or vinyl tube.
 
Apr 2, 2019 at 12:11 AM Post #25 of 196
What about not even using a tip? The nozzle of the IEM could be attached directly to the 711 coupler using blue tac or maybe a short section of silicone or vinyl tube.
as every tip alter highs resonances, we should measure with most common tips (foams, spiral dots, spinfits, kz starlines, and some others, for example). and maybe generate an average response from all them.
blue tac or a short tube would alter resonances at their own as well, and possibly far from common tips. foams could be a standard, if they didn't tame highs. maybe foam + 2 types of silicone tips (wide and narrow bore) would be enough.
 
Apr 2, 2019 at 1:04 AM Post #26 of 196
Believe it or not, I have considered making my own couplers using MY ear own impressions. Everything would be perfectly set up for me - the insertion depth, ear tip size, shape of canal, difference between left and right side, etc.
Of course my graphs wouldn't help others, but then again I am really only making my graphs for me (when tuning for example). So ultimately it would literally be the best thing I could possibly do for myself.
Also thought about it long time before getting iMM-6. But for simplicity, I don`t bother to mess with it as simple tube coupler gives good enough of results.
Maybe when I start to make proper DIY project, then will make one.

What about not even using a tip? The nozzle of the IEM could be attached directly to the 711 coupler using blue tac or maybe a short section of silicone or vinyl tube.
Imho, it`s not a good idea as You take large piece out of real preceived sound equasion. Though, for rig calibrating purpose, choosing one IEM without tip would maybe make sense.
@CoiL where have you found average of 12.7mm?
I’ve found only 25mm as average length of ear canal. My coupler is probably somewhere between roughly 20-25mm long but don’t know actual insertion length. Will have to measure it.
IEC 711 coupler datasheet:
10249858.png

Sorry, I remembered incorrectly, it was about 12.4mm. I don`t know if it is right to "transfer" IEC 711 coupler standard into Dayton iMM-6 but imo it gives pretty accurate results this way.
Haven`t tried measuring with ~25mm distance yet. Will do and post differences.
Anyway, average human ear-canal length is 25mm, that about You are right... but... if You subtract average tip length about 9mm, it gets down to about 16mm. Then You have tolerance which comes from tip fitting onto IEM nozzle.
I read from somewhere (I don`t know where atm) that all things considered, about 12-13mm is good measuring distance.

So, my question to iMM-6 users would be - which is the correct length from mic to tip edge when measuring and also correct diameter of tube?
Please make this clear for everybody for better consistent measurements @ iMM-6.
 
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Apr 2, 2019 at 2:56 AM Post #28 of 196
sort of global response: we have to determine what we're trying to achieve. best measurements or sort of realistic measurement? because holding the IEM in place is something that doesn't necessarily happens in our ears even when the shell is securely fit on part of the pinna and ear canal, all that stuff is flexible.
same for the idea of not using tips. for anybody who needs to make repeated measurements that must achieve the same response, obviously getting rid of the tips is the best approach. Etymotic has a sort of mold where they insert the IEM without tips to measure and match the pairs of the er4 series, and probably to test a lot of stuff on the other models. but the reliable, highly repeatable response we get is not what an actual ear will get. and that to me is a problem. I'm well aware that even the IEC standards are in the end practical choices, some even suspiciously arbitrary IMO, but at least those are references that most people have learned to interpret subjectively(with more or less accuracy). I personally feel that there is value in all those years of habits. if a new better standard comes along and is accessible to us amateur nerds, I'm up for it, but it needs to be something accepted by most people, or we need to have such a massive output of measurements that we can become our own reference, like Tyll did with innerfidelity, like crinacle is doing right now. we accept that their measurements might not mean much in term of standard, but they provide big enough samples of measurements for us to get the relevant relative variations compared to some IEM we have used ourselves.

@hakuzen the most successful changes for me in term of vibration:
- delay the measurement by 2 or 3 seconds in REW, click and move away. or put the mouse on a different desk and stay away ^_^
- measure from 10 or 15Hz instead of 20Hz. I still only look at and show from 20 to 20K, but sometimes it avoids some wiggly artifacts in the subs. no idea if that's due to my gears or if it's something that sometimes happens in REW? same thing with measuring impedance, on rare occasion the impedance curve takes a dive in the upper range, and if I do it again, it rises(if BA), or does whatever it's supposed to measure. I don't seem to be changing anything, so I assume it could be REW. I remember seeing Purrin show such an impedance response that wasn't right in the treble, so I assume it might happen to others too. for that beyond doing several measurements, I'm not sure how to avoid it from happening(but it's super rare for me anyway).
- using a fanless computer. I only do it when I'm really looking for something super specific, because the fanless one I have was crap when it was new, and that was years ago^_^. it's just so slow I go mad from using it. so I usually measure with my rather noisy but responsive one as for FR at least, it's irrelevant so long as I measure a signal in the 80-90dB SPL. but for distortions, in my case it changes everything. I've done stuff to reduce the noise coming from my regular computer too, with yoga brick, acoustic panels, pillows, etc, but none of that can stop low frequencies. so to my ears it's pretty quiet, but my mics disagree ^_^.
- electrical pollution. some gears are just more sensitive than others, but it seems pretty common to have some little 50 or 60Hz noise, or other stuff when some equipment is running in the house. my personal nemesis is my fridge. if it starts running while I measure stuff, noise and distortion levels increase instantly.
- in the dead of the night is always where I got my cleanest measurements, because people sleep. even from an electrical point of view things are just better for me usually after 1AM. again, that doesn't matter for FR, only for stuff measured some 40dB below signal and lower.
- try to feed the mic with different sources. when I started this, I was always feeding my Vibro Veritas with a really noisy and crappy soundcard from my laptop, and it's only when I got other mics requiring different sources/plugs, that I realized how crappy the laptop's DC powering the mics really was. I made an adapter to still be able to use most stuff from the laptop, and that was my wake up call. virtually anything was cleaner, my tablet, phone, some batteries, they all were a lot cleaner. now I mostly use a mic that requires 48V of phantom power, so I don't really have a choice. but for the dayton it might be worth trying a few devices just in case.



well I guess we could also just have proper gears and clean quiet room, but I at least will never have that.
 
Apr 2, 2019 at 3:17 AM Post #29 of 196
I'd be willing to permanently loan my Monster Turbines to the community for the purposes of measurement comparisons. These are vented dynamic driver IEMs. Their amplitude vs frequency response won't be to everybody's taste (they're fairly bass heavy), but they also have very low THD, which would make them an interesting reference point for more than just the standard amplitude vs frequency comparisons between couplers/rigs.

I would love to have @hakuzen be the first recipient, because I find the same issues with damping the IEM in the coupler. Using foam tips helps a lot, but with any type of silicone tip in the coupler, the IEM itself vibrates during any stepped-sine THD measurements (and even during regular sine sweeps). Probably anything you clamp it with is just going to vibrate too. This might be one good argument for a complete anthropomorphic dummy head - because at least there the IEM would be held in roughly the same way it would in a real ear. (Although I've often wondered how the dummy would let you know if the IEM weren't seated and sealed properly?!)

@hakuzen - If you're willing and based in the US, please feel free to pm me your address. Outside the US, we'll have to think a bit more. It's not so much the financial risk of loss, but if our reference pair of IEMs goes missing, well, so does our reference. And that's sort of irreplaceable, because there's typically quite a bit of unit variance from model to model with all these headphones.
we can always kick start this idea the way tours are organized for new gears. people interested make themselves known in some way and we create an order where each person is responsible for managing delivery to the next guy on the list. so long as it works that way, we can do without anybody holding onto the IEMs. and if we never find anybody willing do that, well our reference will only serve those who were on the tour and we can send the IEMs back to the owners. it would be sad, but I totally get that nobody wishes to handle having to organize stuff anytime a new curious member wished to try measuring the IEMs.
the main issue is that I have no idea how many people would be interested. if it's like 8 people(the same guys always talking about amateur IEM measurements on the forum), then we can start before the end of the week, it's no big deal. but if we really try to start something of a big reference, maybe ask Head-fi to feature a post on the subject, or go propose other forums to join in(those 2 option might not be compatible...), and we end up with a hundred people willing to get those IEMs to join in on the calibration, once again, it's just too much bother for me. I get how egoistical it is to say that when I'm the one trying to get it to happen, but I'm just not that cool organizer who can plans stuff. I'm bad at it, I hate doing it, it's just not me.
 
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Apr 2, 2019 at 3:34 AM Post #30 of 196
Also something else you might want to consider, and something I've mentioned privately to a few, why not take advantage of gatherings/events and have a measurement station etc .

People attending already have retail units of a lot of stuff, can use that to increase the sample size of particular models and compare notes on taking measurements.

Instead of the show floor, a quiet coffee place nearby could always work. Would be simpler to sign up volunteers for shows than shipping stuff around.
 

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