[inthere]

Some selective reading going on here........in my very 1st post i said MULTIPLE sources, please check again.

I also explained why most high end headphone are bad for mixing and this is not theory, this is actual experience. If i didnt see it happen many times i wouldn't even mention it.


*Audiophile* flat= no bass bloat which is not truly flat, it's rolled off bass which=missing information. When you try to mix with rolled off bass, your brain compensates by adding more bass, and as you know more bass makes mixes bottom heavy, muddy, and collapses your soundstage, all while sounding normal on your $5000 cans.

Again, this is not theory, actually seen it happen.

Now i expect everyone to stop reading here but the reason i said Beats are better for mixing than HD800 is a. Beats tuning is the most popular tuning in the world so its a great reference and b. Your mix STARTS OUT MUDDY and when it start out muddy you natural clean everything up: put it this way, no way no how are you going to make that mix any muddier.

A clean mix on Beats headphone will be clean on any playback device created, while a clean mix done on high end headphones will only sound clean on other high end cans.....you play that same mix on a pair of Beats tunes headphones or the average crap playback system, mud city.

If nobody understands that i apologize because i obviously explain myself poorly.

The music biz has been my only source of income
for decades and i have have a tough time communicating

 

[yugas]

I find the Utopia a little bit shaper on the low mids, where the HD800S puts a little of warm sound. Bass is so much tigher on the Utopias, no question, and I also think it can reach lower tones.
 
Is not that the Utopia sounds x3 o 4 times better than the HD800S, I think they sound different but the model by Focal has more capabilities from a technical point of view and for me it's a more dynamic and fun headphone to listen to.

 

[JohnnyD]

Some selective reading going on here........in my very 1st post i said MULTIPLE sources, please check again.

I also explained why most high end headphone are bad for mixing and this is not theory, this is actual experience. If i didnt see it happen many times i wouldn't even mention it.


*Audiophile* flat= no bass bloat which is not truly flat, it's rolled off bass which=missing information. When you try to mix with rolled off bass, your brain compensates by adding more bass, and as you know more bass makes mixes bottom heavy, muddy, and collapses your soundstage, all while sounding normal on your $5000 cans.

Again, this is not theory, actually seen it happen.

Now i expect everyone to stop reading here but the reason i said Beats are better for mixing than HD800 is a. Beats tuning is the most popular tuning in the world so its a great reference and b. Your mix STARTS OUT MUDDY and when it start out muddy you natural clean everything up: put it this way, no way no how are you going to make that mix any muddier.

A clean mix on Beats headphone will be clean on any playback device created, while a clean mix done on high end headphones will only sound clean on other high end cans.....you play that same mix on a pair of Beats tunes headphones or the average crap playback system, mud city.

If nobody understands that i apologize because i obviously explain myself poorly.

The music biz has been my only source of income
for decades and i have have a tough time communicating

 
Just to be clear, I don't care about most high end head phones I care only about the HD800s & Focals Utopia (specially because the focal's are using patented technology no other headphones have) which leads to more accurate sound reproduction, this is why I was so specific in the title. I'm fully aware that some high-end headphones are colored!
 
Yes, I am clearly aware you mentioned multiple sources, I'm specifically talking about using beats by dre for mixing and how that won't work (with a few anomalies) . This is why I brought up the multiple speaker source to make a point that you need both high end and low end monitoring sources. In your previous response you specifically said:

 What I'm trying to say is you'll probably have a much more accurate mix using Beats than the Focal Utopia OR the HD800.

That's like saying you're better of mixing on the NS10's than mixing on high end monitors such as the Genelecs. This is why I mentioned the high end monitors set-up of other top engineers and how that contradicts what you're saying based off of how they use their monitors. 

 
I have a hard time believing Audiophile's see flat as "not bloated bass", someone correct me if i'm wrong but flat is the universal term for not colored meaning the mid's aren't hyped up, or the bass is not hyped up or lacking, etc... It's all about an accurate representation of the amount of bass or mid's or high's (or whatever) the producer who created the track originally added. It's hearing the music how the artist/producer originally intended for it be heard.
 
As far as the high end headphones not crapping out when too much bass is added, or mid's etc... This is true for any high-end monitoring set-up be it headphones or studio monitors, they both act the same way in that regard. It's about "knowing" your equipment. On a truly flat monitoring source, if the bass is really hitting, then that's a sign for you to turn it down because you "know" that this will translate to a bass heavy track on other systems. 
 
I see what you're "trying" to say about beats and how if it sounds like crap on beats, then that means it will sound like crap on other systems as well and vice versa. Like I said in my previous response, if you mix on low end gear then you’re going to completely miss the artifacts which might not be apparent to people with beats by dre or similar headphones. What about people with higher end headphones, home theater systems, people who have expensive cars with high end radio's, etc... They'll surely notice those artifacts, this is why ALL major engineers use very high end monitoring chains to remove that data from the recording so no matter who listens to it, EVERYONE gets a similar listing experience. 
 
There are hundreds of bed room producers, who all have a problem of making their mix translate well despite using low end or commercial gear like beats by dre. It's because they make poor mixing decisions because their monitoring chains don't reveal certain information in the audio or the information that it's revealing is not accurate. 
 
I had the privilege of producing songs for some artist signed to universal records, capital records, as well a few TV placements. An A&R from universal heard one of my records back in 2010 and told me this exact thing "The track sounds great bit it needs to be bigger". I did not know for the life of me what that meant so I asked him. He told me that "they played the record which revealed the flaws in the mix" on the Mains (those huge studio monitors just about every studio has). At the end of the day if what you're saying had any merit then like I asked in my previous response, why aren't the best of the best doing it?

 

[inthere]

Well, what I said had no merit. I tried. I've done over 250 records and some here on Head Fi know my work.

I recorded 43 headphones with a binaural mic that I built and cross referenced them with each other and the original .wav file for accuracy. When I get the Utopia sometime in October I think I'll post the .wav file and the original here to show how close they are.

 

[ESL-1]

Maybe earlier models did...mine don't at all.

Just coming across this, listened to the Utopia twice, once in comparison at length with the fourth and final prototype of the the Grado PS2000e. The Utopia looked and sounded very good but my choice was the new Grado Flagship. I feel the Utopia is about $1000 overpriced and allows the Grado to sound more of the value it is. Always personal taste involved of course. I have an Elear purchased second hand below $600 like new condition and I like it at it's price point. Looking to maybe grab a Utopia as I see a number used in the classified.

 

[cossix]

HI, I have been lurking on this forum for the past few days and I have been really torn between getting the Focal Utopia or the HD 800s. I know the only true way for me to know is to hear them in person myself but I still like having other peoples input so that way I might learn something which might effect my end decision.

Anyways, I think I've probably read about 85% of post regarding the Focal Utopia and the HD 800 on this forum and one of the reoccurring points I've noticed is regarding the soundstage and the instrument separation of the HD 800's, some claiming it sounds "unnatural" when compared to the Utopia (or real life in general). I also read a post from thatonenoob who said that the Utopia sounded "cohesive" and I read another post from someone else (Can't remember the name) who said the Utopia did a great great job "blending the sounds together" which in my world (mixing/engineering) is NOT a good thing.

Now I said all of that to say this, I do a lot of audio work (mixing, etc..) and when listening to high end studio monitors I notice that the sound stage always sound larger and the instruments sound more spacious since it makes it easier to perform audio edits like,EQ, Reverb, Compression, etc...

So my thing is this, all of the people who don't like the soundstage of the HD 800, do you guy's do any type of audio editing or do you listen for simply enjoyment?

The second question I have is do you guy's think that Focal and Sennheiser might be targeting different type of users with their headphones? Sennheiser focusing more on mixing enginners, producers, etc.. and Focal focusing more on the typical Audiophile?

Any input would be much appreciated...

I've tried the Utopia at a local audio shop and for the hour I listened, it didn't wow me like the 800 did. I wasn't able to compare the two directly because they didn't carry any Sennheisers but from what I remember of the 800, I prefer it. The Utopia sounded very refined but not excelling at anything in particular. Even running the Utopia out of a super high end McIntosh I didn't feel very impressed by them. But the 800 and 800S out of my Jotunheim sounded much more impressive, perhaps because they don't sound like most other flagship models. I prefer the 800 to the Utopia and even the LCD4.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Just coming across this, listened to the Utopia twice, once in comparison at length with the fourth and final prototype of the the Grado PS2000e. The Utopia looked and sounded very good but my choice was the new Grado Flagship. I feel the Utopia is about $1000 overpriced and allows the Grado to sound more of the value it is. Always personal taste involved of course. I have an Elear purchased second hand below $600 like new condition and I like it at it's price point. Looking to maybe grab a Utopia as I see a number used in the classified.

Sorry, I would never take a Grado over either the HD800S or especially the Utopia (best dynamic headphones out there to my ears by a long shot).

UPDATE: Grado released the PS2000e. I sold my HD800S recently and kept the PS2000e...so never say never.

 

[Dulalala]

I've tried the Utopia at a local audio shop and for the hour I listened, it didn't wow me like the 800 did. I wasn't able to compare the two directly because they didn't carry any Sennheisers but from what I remember of the 800, I prefer it. The Utopia sounded very refined but not excelling at anything in particular. Even running the Utopia out of a super high end McIntosh I didn't feel very impressed by them. But the 800 and 800S out of my Jotunheim sounded much more impressive, perhaps because they don't sound like most other flagship models. I prefer the 800 to the Utopia and even the LCD4.

I personally thought the Utopia sounded much better out of a solid state than a tube.

 

[money4me247]

I own both currently. Did not pay full price for either. It will be a personal preference call which one you like better. I personally prefer the HD800S regardless of price point or external component pairing, but obviously like both since I still have both.

the main difference is the h800S has a much more impressive soundstage and the utopia has a fuller thicker sound with more bass. This difference is readily apparent upon direct comparison, and likely the determining factor which one you prefer.

any review that says there is anything special about the utopia's soundstage did not run it through a gauntlet of direct comparisons. the utopia's soundstage is average at best, even among high-performing open mid-tier headphones. nothing special there. what draws people to the utopia is its frequency response tuning rather than its technical performance. from my personal testing, it is possible to achieve a similar warmer thicker Utopia-like sound with the HD800S, either by pairing it with a warmer amplifier/tube amplifier or playing around with EQ, but of course I think it makes more sense to just pick based on which sound signature is closest to your tastes rather than trying to tweak dramatically. I do personally think the utopia sounds too syrupy and thick for me with tubes, so I would suggest a solid state amp pairing for it.

the other undeniable fact is that the utopia has not been retaining its value as well as the sennheiser hd800S. this is partly due to how focal will only honor the warranty of the original purchaser. and it is also partly due to its already high price point. I am an avid trader, so I watch used headphone prices very closely. There have also been quite a few very lucrative sales on brand-new Utopias, so traders trying to sell on the second-hand market has also suffered a bit there. Just do a quick search on the price points of Utopias floating around on the classified section to see how dramatic of a price drop occurs when trying to sell secondhand. If really wanting the Utopia, just be aware of its pricing history.

 

[jamesjames]

HI, I have been lurking on this forum for the past few days and I have been really torn between getting the Focal Utopia or the HD 800s. I know the only true way for me to know is to hear them in person myself but I still like having other peoples input so that way I might learn something which might effect my end decision.

Anyways, I think I've probably read about 85% of post regarding the Focal Utopia and the HD 800 on this forum and one of the reoccurring points I've noticed is regarding the soundstage and the instrument separation of the HD 800's, some claiming it sounds "unnatural" when compared to the Utopia (or real life in general). I also read a post from thatonenoob who said that the Utopia sounded "cohesive" and I read another post from someone else (Can't remember the name) who said the Utopia did a great great job "blending the sounds together" which in my world (mixing/engineering) is NOT a good thing.

Now I said all of that to say this, I do a lot of audio work (mixing, etc..) and when listening to high end studio monitors I notice that the sound stage always sound larger and the instruments sound more spacious since it makes it easier to perform audio edits like,EQ, Reverb, Compression, etc...

So my thing is this, all of the people who don't like the soundstage of the HD 800, do you guy's do any type of audio editing or do you listen for simply enjoyment?

The second question I have is do you guy's think that Focal and Sennheiser might be targeting different type of users with their headphones? Sennheiser focusing more on mixing enginners, producers, etc.. and Focal focusing more on the typical Audiophile?

Any input would be much appreciated...

Hello

I own the Focal Utopia, the Sennheiser HD800 and the AKG K812. I listen to classical music, and generally high quality recordings through a very revealing system, which I think is relevant. The Sennheisers are my favourite headphones. I prefer the HD800 (which is still available used) to the HD800S. The HD800 has a magical ability to deliver detail without stridency, and seems to me very natural in terms of its coverage of the frequency spectrum (I attend many concerts and recitals). The HD800S is terrific, but a little less magical, and also slightly exaggerated in the bottom end. The K812 is very fine in my view, although less natural to my ears, and more strident than the Sennheisers - larger than life I think. The Focal is disappointing. The rolled-off top-end and exaggerated bottom-end crowd out the superb mids - with the result somewhat claustrophobic and bland. This isn't helped by the Focal's weight (much heavier than the Sennheisers and the AKG) and relatively small circumference ear-cups.

 

[jaaibananzu]

I only listened to the older hd800 some years ago and they bored me.
But I'm not listening to classical music.

 

[acguitar84]

I'm listening to my HD800S tonight (Allan Holdsworth) - and digging it! But researching the Utopia to see if it would be a great addition to the collection. It would be nice to hear from more folks that have both/have compared them.

 

[Empyah]

Well that would be like eliminating dog whistles................nobody will hear them anyway. Seriously, any glaring artifacts would be heard on the Beats and anything else would be something .05% of the $1000+ headphone buying nerdy audiophiles would notice if they were specifically looking for it, if they even listened to your specific music genre.

Go to a music appreciation thread and play some of the poorly engineered crap that the Stax and hi end buyers are raving about........

On the other hand, Beats are the worlds most popular headphone, which is a good starting point, and if your mix sounds great on Beats it'll sound sensational on everything else, while if your mix sounds great on Utopias, you can only be sure it'll sound great on Utopias, because almost nothing sounds as good as Utopias......same philosophy as NS 10's.

This comment made look for a dislike button for almost 2 hours...

 

[glennkresge]

I have all kinds of cans-it is beyond a hobby for me. I have the Senn HD 800; and the top-of-the-line Beyerdynamics all GENS. I really love the T-5/third Gen. The T-1 first has a fixed cable and takes some amps to drive them. They were a little bright, so I changed pads to leather and it really improved that issue. I also did the same for the T-1 2nd gen too. The third generation is already dark sounding. I have the Focal Clear and the close back Focal Elegia. I change pads on both of them. For the Clear, I use the Elegia pads for more base, and on the Elegia I used the leather pads. This improved the sound for me. I really like the new Beyerdynamics DT 700 Pro and the 900 Pro open back. They really are very good-sounding headphones. Many people use them for mixing too. They really are well made and not that costly! The headband pad is really easy to replace along with the pads. I really like them! They are very light and good for long periods of wear. I am trying to discern between the HD-800S, HD 820, and or the Focal Utopia. I was told there's not much difference between the old HD 800 and the new 800s; and not a lot of difference between the Focal Clear and the Utopia either. At least not for the price range. I do like the Focals and how well-made they are. They sound good too!

 

[tomb]

I've been engineering professionally for 30+ years and if you're a pro too you'll know that the most popular mixing rule for at least the last 3 decades is you *don't* mix with headphones. This is because headphones are side/on ear presentation which is different from every other form of listening, which is frontal/distance presentation. So it's not just frequency response, it's physics.

That said, there's much more headphone listening going on nowadays with iPods, iPads, iPhones, DAPs, workouts, etc.

Ideally, when mixing you always want multiple monitor sources. Most engineers I've worked with always duck outside to listen on their car sound systems, even when having 3 sets of monitors in the studio plus headphones.

With headphones, there is no universally perfect can for mixing. I sold my HD800 because I was subconsciously compensating for a severe lack of bass and my resulting mixes were muddy and bottom heavy. Clarity and reverb/effects decay was also borked when trying to monitor with them, because when I tried playback on average consumer systems like iPod/car system the effects decays basically disappeared. They simply couldn't reproduce that level of clarity.

So after tens of thousands spent on headphones I found that you can't mix on high end headphones and expect it to sound sensational on Beats, which the overwhelming majority of the headphone listening world is using.

When searching for mixing headphones, I'd strongly suggest looking into the popularity of the Yamaha NS10. For 30+ years they've been industry standard and mandatory for every high end studio on the planet.

They sound like crap. They've always sounded like crap.

Yet no matter what high end 200k speaker system a major recording studio has, they always include those crappy NS10's-and engineers still run to their cars to check a mix on their crappy car sound systems.

That's because they know that the music listening public is most likely using crap.

What I'm trying to say is you'll probably have a much more accurate mix using Beats than the Focal Utopia OR the HD800.

I'm personally getting the Focal Utopia in 2 weeks. My AKG 872 should be arriving today. I have the Ether C and sending it back for the Flow upgrade. I'll probably sell my LCD 4 when I get the Utopia.

I love headphones, and my life would be complete if I could reliably mix with one of my hi-end headphones instead of crap like Beats or ATH M50's or even V-Moda.

But I can't. Save your money, unless you just want some sensational sounding headphones for fun listening, like me.

Simply outstanding ... one of the best posts I've read on Head-Fi.