[jlbrach]

I am sorry that my in jest comment offended you.....i again ask...do you think the cable provided with the HP costs the manufacturer 1000 dollars?really?....

 

[495045]

Based on some models I have seen normally the pure manufacturing cost is about 25% of the retail.

I would say 25% at most for unexpensive (which can be neither cheap or low end) cable, around 10%for medium ones 10% (as and example the phono Linn -T kable) and much less than 10% for very expensive cables. This is for big brands, not artisans and just manufacturing cost. Sometime (no in the Linn case) quite a lot has been invested in research and that has to be added to the manufacturing cost.

 

[musicman59]

I thought you were talking about the Kimber Axios AG ($4,500/ 6 ft)
Not knowing their total manufacturing cost structure will be just speculation. Now, I agree that lately the prices in general in the headphones business have gone crazy but that is unfortunately of the larger demand and growth of the market.

 

[musicman59]

I would say 25% at most for unexpensive (which can be neither cheap or low end) cable, around 10%for medium ones 10% (as and example the phono Linn -T kable) and much less than 10% for very expensive cables. This is for big brands, not artisans and just manufacturing cost. Sometime (no in the Linn case) quite a lot has been invested in research and that has to be added to the manufacturing cost.

I would agree on this. Basically paying for a luxury item.

 

[Allanmarcus]

Graduated ? Which level ? How does one know if they are hearing the sound that was accepted by the artist ?

Graduate level means either a masters degree or PhD. Generally with someone has a PhD, they will say so, so "graduate level" is a common way of saying "masters degree". At last that's how I interpret it.

As for the "how the artist wanted it" argument. I used to use that same theory. Then I read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition. For the very very few recordings of live performances where no electronics are use at all, the sound reproduced by your speakers at home and what the artist produced at the recording are highly unlikely to ever be the same. period. even if you have best, most expensive equipment and treated listening space. But then you add recording engineers (and the musicians, sometimes) mixing everything, and now the recording itself can sound different than live. Then the mix is passed to a mastering engineer that can change the sound more, based on personal preferences, listen room conditions, or equipment.

The point is the there is no way you can listen to a CD or album in any way that "was accepted by the artist", unless you have the exact same equipment and conditionals as the artists. Hell, many time the artists isn't even involved int he final product (other then the paycheck). You can only listen to a way that is acceptable by you. Sure, we all want a standard we can point to and say that if my system meets the standard, my system will sound just like a reference system. Not gonna happen.

As for headphones, which greatly reduce the variability due to a removal of the room as a factor, we still have (as Jason pointed out) the ears and the brain. Here's great example of this: the yanny vs laurel audio test. The simple fact the some people year yanny and others hear Laurel, show that people hear better at different frequencies. -- he's saying Laurel, BTW

Still, your assertion that sound reproduction equipment should reproduce neutral output, and then be modified for personal taste is a common refrain. This is why I picked the Utopia and the PMx2. The PMx2 is by far the most neutral headphone I have ever heard. It's also a little boring. The Utopia is next in line for me, and it has more, something, that makes the music more enjoyable to me.

please note that in the USA, generally it's the audiophile that is the one that cares about the equipment, and measurements, aesthetics, and much less about musical enjoyment. The melomane would be the subjectivist that just wants to enjoy the music. Of course there are plenty of audiophile subjectivists that claim to hear differences between things in their audio chain that supposedly make the music sound "better" that cannot be proved (or just haven' been proved yet). But audiophile equals nerdy gear head

Obviously the point of good sound reproduction equipment is to reproduce sound as faithfully as possible. But as Toole says in the introduction to his book

So, reviewing the process, there are several opportunities for significant personal input into the content of music recordings and how they sound on playback. Serious music lovers should attempt to experience live-unamplified-music performances if they wish to hear "reality." No recording, through any number of channels, can perfectly duplicate that reality, however good the playback apparatus. The vast majority of music recordings originate in studios, and before they reach us they have been subject to numerous subjectively guided manipulations, evaluated using loudspeakers of varying pedigree. Even supposedly "pure" classical recordings are massaged in the mixing and mastering processes to make them more pleasant when auditioned through two loud- speakers. The signal from a microphone focused on an acoustically weak instrument or voice may be spatially enhanced so that it fits into the acoustical setting of the entire orchestra. When well done, the trickery is not detected.

The utopia, to me (and many) helps make listening to music enjoyable. That is the point of the Utopia, and other non-professional sound reproduction equipment. Enjoyment. For "neutral", I suggest you turn to equipment made specifically for professionals, like "studio" class headphones and studio equipment.

 

[TSAVJason]

so you believe the cable costs the manufacturer 1000 dollars?.....what are you smoking?

I’m some brands he’s actually on the money. If you’re talking about big box brands or online store brands like that the margin can be much higher.

 

[TSAVJason]

First of all I take offense of you smoking comment. I don't know you for you to address me like that.
Second, Do you know how much silver the cable has in it and the cost of it? I bet not.
My comment regarding the manufacturing cost is based on direct knowledge since I participated in a company that produced cables.

Hahaha hey I smoke some of the best ....doesn’t make you a bad guy ....but I got your point on the insult it was said in a derogatory fashion

 

[jlbrach]

I think we may have a bit of confusion.....i am referring to the cable provided by focal with the utopia not cables tat cost 4000 on their own.....although i highly doubt the cost to manufacturer is close to 25% on any of them

 

[baiyy1986]

I am always wondering how you guy knows the price for Utopia stock cable.
It is obviously not on the website.
I only find it on Newegg and it is from the third party.



 

[PeteSTRADAMUS]

I am always wondering how you guy knows the price for Utopia stock cable.
It is obviously not on the website.
I only find it on Newegg and it is from the third party.



If it cost's that much, does anyone want to buy mines from me lol

 

[TSAVJason]

Graduate level means either a masters degree or PhD. Generally with someone has a PhD, they will say so, so "graduate level" is a common way of saying "masters degree". At last that's how I interpret it.

As for the "how the artist wanted it" argument. I used to use that same theory. Then I read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition. For the very very few recordings of live performances where no electronics are use at all, the sound reproduced by your speakers at home and what the artist produced at the recording are highly unlikely to ever be the same. period. even if you have best, most expensive equipment and treated listening space. But then you add recording engineers (and the musicians, sometimes) mixing everything, and now the recording itself can sound different than live. Then the mix is passed to a mastering engineer that can change the sound more, based on personal preferences, listen room conditions, or equipment.

The point is the there is no way you can listen to a CD or album in any way that "was accepted by the artist", unless you have the exact same equipment and conditionals as the artists. Hell, many time the artists isn't even involved int he final product (other then the paycheck). You can only listen to a way that is acceptable by you. Sure, we all want a standard we can point to and say that if my system meets the standard, my system will sound just like a reference system. Not gonna happen.

As for headphones, which greatly reduce the variability due to a removal of the room as a factor, we still have (as Jason pointed out) the ears and the brain. Here's great example of this: the yanny vs laurel audio test. The simple fact the some people year yanny and others hear Laurel, show that people hear better at different frequencies. -- he's saying Laurel, BTW

Still, your assertion that sound reproduction equipment should reproduce neutral output, and then be modified for personal taste is a common refrain. This is why I picked the Utopia and the PMx2. The PMx2 is by far the most neutral headphone I have ever heard. It's also a little boring. The Utopia is next in line for me, and it has more, something, that makes the music more enjoyable to me.

please note that in the USA, generally it's the audiophile that is the one that cares about the equipment, and measurements, aesthetics, and much less about musical enjoyment. The melomane would be the subjectivist that just wants to enjoy the music. Of course there are plenty of audiophile subjectivists that claim to hear differences between things in their audio chain that supposedly make the music sound "better" that cannot be proved (or just haven' been proved yet). But audiophile equals nerdy gear head

Obviously the point of good sound reproduction equipment is to reproduce sound as faithfully as possible. But as Toole says in the introduction to his book


The utopia, to me (and many) helps make listening to music enjoyable. That is the point of the Utopia, and other non-professional sound reproduction equipment. Enjoyment. For "neutral", I suggest you turn to equipment made specifically for professionals, like "studio" class headphones and studio equipment.

My electronics degree is a EE. In today’s education system I believe they have a new name for it. There are guidelines, preferences and producers. All of these make absolutes very difficult and quite subjective. Artists often say “I need my sound” of course no problem but my point was the listener isn’t necessarily hearing it the way it was recorded. And how do we know what that sound is supposed to be.

 

[495045]

I would agree on this. Basically paying for a luxury item.

And the terminaisons. Cold wedding or molded cost quite a lot. They implie to use machines that are expensive to operate and have to do hundreds of cables. That's also has to be taken into account.

BTW, those sellers offers to burn in the cables up to 96 hours for free using and expensive Naïm equipment. That a great idea. Otherwise, we'll finish by keeping on burning equipments (cables, headphones, speakers, cartridges, tubes and I must be forgetting lot of equipments such as class A ones). Pretty soon, the stylus of a cartridge will be used before the cartrige start to lay down.

As an example, there is a limited edition HDMI cable called the "Mocha". It is only available on 1m length. The price is 199 euros (including VAT) in France. It is exactrly the same than the Audioquest Coffee which is price 545 euros for 1 meter (including VAT)

 

[TSAVJason]

I am always wondering how you guy knows the price for Utopia stock cable.
It is obviously not on the website.
I only find it on Newegg and it is from the third party.



Ouch I sure wouldn’t buy it there. First of all even dealers can’t sell through Newegg as a 3rd party fulfillment so who knows you could be buying a counterfeit cable. It is no

I thought you were talking about the Kimber Axios AG ($4,500/ 6 ft)
Not knowing their total manufacturing cost structure will be just speculation. Now, I agree that lately the prices in general in the headphones business have gone crazy but that is unfortunately of the larger demand and growth of the market.

FYI, unlike most silver cables Kimber is actually .99 pure. Some of the best I’ve ever seen. Little to no contamination this makes for greater conductivity

 

[mulveling]

What you are really upset about is peanuts compared to other companies. Look up He1k bait and switch or just HFM as a whole. Audeze building heavier and heavier headphones. Look at JPS labs with a $6k planar with a $2k cable that makes nil difference. Even Stax had massive problems with Yama and price japan.

Sennheiser is your best bet if this really upsets you but I would not buy anything post beats/ hd800. They turned urbanite after the hd800 and while I'm sure you will get great customer service from them you will get a dud product if it is post hd800. Even the new baby Orpheus I'm fully expecting to be a dud.

Agree with most of that, but in no way did Stax have anything to do with the PriceJapan issues. PJ was always a grey-market vendor, completely disconnected from the Stax distribution chain (in fact subverting it to Stax's chagrin), and it was always buy at your own risk for a variable bit of discount (that became increasingly tempting when the yen was weak against USD, like ~ 120 per dollar).

 

[up late]

You right, they are no more nor less factually correct and valid than yours or any other membre.

ok. moving on then - have you tried the utopia as i can't tell from your posts.