[SearchOfSub]

I do have a good feeling the Utopia will sound great based on toxicity level of the tweeter. All best things in life are usually hazardous to your body. .

 

[dreambass]

I have probably had worse but anyhow I'll avoid eating the Berryllium in the utopia.......come on now.

 

[MooMooMoooo]

   
Are you suggesting health effects when using the Focal headphones?
 
I think this fear is legitimate if the enclosure does not protect the Beryllium from contact with corrosive material.  Say, some's perspiration.  In such cases, just how much acidic sweat can alter the stability of the processed Beryllium is the unknown,  
Do you (or anyone here) have the user manual for the Focal Utopia headphone?
Like to see the health warning there, if any.
 
paul

That's very interesting point.  The beryllium drivers in the Focal Utopia headphones will be exposed to human perspiration as well as body temperatures.  They are also in close proximity to the user for extended periods of time in those conditions.  Beryllium drivers in tweeters aren't exposed to human perspiration and operate at room temperature.  Focal said in the interview with Jude (or on their website, I don't remember precisely where) that the driver is pure beryllium with a layer of beryllium oxide that forms on the surface of the metal.  That is a process known as passivation.  It's like how aluminium is a highly reactive metal but it appears to be inert because a protective and inert film of aluminium oxide quickly forms on its surface when exposed to oxygen in the air.  However, passivation layers are not impervious.  The aluminium oxide layer is non-porous but it breaks down when exposed to mercury and that's why mercury isn't allowed on planes because it will eat into the plane.  Another example is the iron oxide layer that forms on most alloys of steel.  That oxide layer is porous so it doesn't have a protective effect at all.
 
The first issue here is that human perspiration is corrosive.  The main cause of corrosivity in human perspiration is the content of chloride (See: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010938X72912425).  The corrosivity of human perspiration is well known and it's discussed at length at http://www.pickeringtestsolutions.com/pdfs/Perspiration_Tests_of_Consumer_Products%20draft.pdf  The use of beryllium in a hot and sweaty headphone environment is new and so Focal should elaborate on that issue to allay safety concerns.  Would the beryllium start to corrode due to exposure to human perspiration at body temperature and then flake off beryllium dust?
 
The second issue is what is the cycle fatigue resistance of beryllium metal?  Iron cycle fatigue plateaus whereas aluminium cycle fatigue doesn't plateau and it can reach breaking point.  It could also be the case that for all intents and purposes cycle fatigue isn't an issue for the drivers for the lifetime of the product.  The long travel of the beryllium diaphragms makes cycle fatgiue an issue.
 
I'm not saying that people are going to drop dead from using the product.  I'm also not suggesting that people lick or eat the drivers.  Emeralds are a beryllium mineral and nobody is going to die from emerald exposure.  Beryllium oxide is carcinogenic but once it's sintered into its ceramic form it's very stable and safe as long as it's not subject to machining that produces dust (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide).  There are many materials that are safe in certain forms.  For example, many dyes that contain cyanide but aren't toxic in that form.
 
What I am saying is that given how dangerous beryllium is, and given that it's being used in a new way in the Focal Utopia headphones in a hot and sweaty/corrosive environment, that I would like to hear from Focal on those risks.  The reasoning behind the precautionary principle is that it is better to be excessively cautious where the potential harm caused by a mistake is so terrible and irreversible that it warrants the caution until more is known.

 

[AxelCloris]

  The User Manual for the Focal Diablo Speaker is can be downloaded at http://www.focal.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=4170
 
It uses Beryllium tweeters and there is a warning on Page 14 of the manual about Beryllium.  The warning says:
 
[snip]

 
Honestly I don't see why people are so worried about the beryllium in the Utopia. Here you're sharing information from an unrelated product's user manual about damage to a beryllium driver; an excerpt that I don't think is applicable to the Utopia. The warnings are about (1) corrosive materials coming into contact with the driver and (2) damage to the driver are things that can easily happen with a loudspeaker.
 
If someone is say cleaning the housing then it's entirely possible that corrosive cleaners could come into contact with a beryllium driver, sure. A headphone is a different beast. I can't imagine an owner would open a flagship pair of headphones so that they can spray the driver down with CLR. To me your argument about people who intend to mod the headphone is flawed. Modders take their safety into their own hands when they mod an item. If someone is modding an amp then it's possible to electrocute themselves if they aren't careful. Modders accept a certain degree of risk when modifying the product. Sometimes that risk is just financial loss if they damage the product and other times it could be more serious. As for the comments on disposal, every single electronic product on the market advises how to dispose of it somewhere in the manual. That's a case of the manufacturer covering their butt. Heck, I've seen shampoo bottles that warned me to dispose of them properly because it's a good idea for the environment. Those warnings are everywhere.
 

(Image: YouTube)
 
The driver in the Utopia headphone isn't easily exposed like it is on the Diablo. Take a look at the image above. Anything could bump into the speakers and damage the beryllium. I could walk up to it and lick it with ease should I be so inclined. Your typical owner of these monitors is no doubt going to be careful around them. That's common sense. This is the same thing as restaurants warning you that your freshly brewed coffee is hot. You know it's hot and you don't plan to spill coffee on your lap but accidents do happen and you can easily get hurt if you're not careful. You don't plan to go around stabbing these speakers but should an accident happen it's possible for one to get damaged.
 
Jason has provided information related to the manufacturing of the beryllium sheets used in the Utopia and if you want more direct confirmation feel free to reach out to Focal and ask their customer service team about it. The sheets aren't going to explode into a cloud of dust if they get damaged so there's no major reason to keep bringing up the fact that the headphones have beryllium. Many headphones contain adhesives and solder and yet their manuals don't tell me not to eat those materials. Does that mean it's perfectly safe to chow down on the glue found in my favorite pair of headphones? Obviously not and it's the same with the drivers in the Utopia. And to follow up with a direct point of yours, there are class 1 carcinogens that we willingly ingest every day. Many adults consume alcohol or use tobacco products in their daily routine and both are known to be carcinogenic to humans.
 
tl;dr This continued beryllium debate is ridiculous. Let's focus on the sound of these modern design headphones and stop propagating an unfounded fear.

 

 

[1c3d0g]

@AxelCloris: couldn't have said it better myself. This horse has been beaten to death now. Unless you're in the habit of pulverizing your headphone driver and snorting it or eating it, you're safe from the toxicity of Beryllium.
 
Now, can we please, for the love of God, get back on topic and discuss more impressions people have with the Utopia/Elear?

 

[MooMooMoooo]

Self responsibility is the last resort of the scoundrel.  In that case let's not have barriers on balconies.  It's obvious to a person that they will fall to their deaths if they step over the edge so there's no need to have a barrier *sarcasm*  It doesn't remove the duty of care that rests with the manufacturer to make their products safe.  There is no accounting for human idiocy but a manufacturer has a duty at law to ensure that their products are safe.  I don't doubt that Focal as a reputable manufacturer has met those standards.  However, just look at all the product recalls that consumers are hit with regularly.  Also look at the recent death airbag recalls and Toyota recalls.  What concerns me is that beryllium is deadly and I am worried about that.  If you are trusting (institutional trust) then by all means just take their word for it.  However, when it's such a toxic material I would like to hear more than "it's safe" and instead hear, "it's safe because we've extensively tested it for those conditions".  A manufacturer doesn't have to explain, at least to a consumer, but it would go a long way if it did.

 

[heliosphann]

Can't wait until Sennheiser unveils their long awaited new headphones... Made from Polonium!

 

[x RELIC x]

The Utopia has pretty good protection for the driver. I can't really see any way a user would touch the driver unless being a complete idiot and dismantling the headphone and purposefully abusing it.

Look at the rear of the open section of the driver in the below pic. There is a fine screen in front of the magnets, behind the larger grill of the outside of the headphone. I don't think anyone is going to be 'accidentally' poking anything in there. Focal has provided warnings in the packaging much in the same way a device with a dangerous lithium battery has warnings. To ignor them is a fools pursuit. I don't see Head Fi'ers endlessly debating the use of potentially volatile lithium batteries in their gear (by the way, the elctronics in DAPs contain Be).




There is another screen on the inside so nothing is going to accidentally poke it directly from the inside either, and the driver is placed well away from the ear on the inside of the cup. Also, I simply don't see how sweat or anything would corrode the driver as Be is resistant to concentrated nitric acid. Even if the user is constantly, violently, shaking their head while profusely sweating, day in and day out it won't affect the driver. Also, the shape of the driver and the placement of the voice coil is meant to minimize distortions on the driver for performance. I honestly don't think that the driver is deforming enough to be of concern, especially with the relatively minor stresses of a headphone. I mean, look at the tolerances of the voice coil in the magnet structure. If there were large deformations the whole thing simply wouldn't perform.

Given the stability of Be in its solid form I think this paranoia is silly. It's used under the ocean in fibre optic piping for its anti-corrosion properties in beryllium/copper alloy - Beryllium is also used in cell phones, cameras, spot welding electrodes, and many other daily use devices. I'd be much more concerned of its regular use in air bags and automobile components during a crash. If anyone is seriously considering the purchase of the $4K Utopia then do your due diligence and feel free to contact Focal directly. Please don't choke the threads with these unfounded concerns.

 

[phase0]

   Quote:

 
tl;dr This continued beryllium debate is ridiculous. Let's focus on the sound of these modern design headphones and stop propagating an unfounded fear.

 
Well that reminds me of messages like this nuclear reactor is safe so shut up about being worried that we're installing it in your back yard, or that fracking doesn't cause ground water contamination. Point being is that this isn't going to be effective at dispelling these kinds of concerns, research, experimentation, data, official legal statements from the vendor, etc would do this. I don't see any reason not to ask these questions. Someone is spending a lot of money on a toy. I find the points MooMooMoooo raises very interesting. They could be the greatest sounding headphones ever but your health is always worth more than the latest fad or gadget.
 

  Self responsibility is the last resort of the scoundrel.  In that case let's not have barriers on balconies.  It's obvious to a person that they will fall to their deaths if they step over the edge so there's no need to have a barrier *sarcasm*  It doesn't remove the duty of care that rests with the manufacturer to make their products safe.  There is no accounting for human idiocy but a manufacturer has a duty at law to ensure that their products are safe.  I don't doubt that Focal as a reputable manufacturer has met those standards.  However, just look at all the product recalls that consumers are hit with regularly.  Also look at the recent death airbag recalls and Toyota recalls.  What concerns me is that beryllium is deadly and I am worried about that.  If you are trusting (institutional trust) then by all means just take their word for it.  However, when it's such a toxic material I would like to hear more than "it's safe" and instead hear, "it's safe because we've extensively tested it for those conditions".  A manufacturer doesn't have to explain, at least to a consumer, but it would go a long way if it did.

 
+1
 
Here's another contrived scenario. You're driving in a car with your new fancy headphones and get in a wreck. What if you're headphones are destroyed and you're trapped in your vehicle waiting on rescue... Or the kid or the dog gets a hold of them and tries to tear them up. I'm not saying it will happen but consider the possibility. I know nobody wants to find fault in the headphones but trying to shush people up on it is the wrong approach IMO. If you're not at all concerned about any potential risk you've either put in an order or you're saving to place your order soon.

 

[x RELIC x]

There are other headphones to purchase then at $4K if the use of Be is a concern.

Edit: There is ample information about Be on the internet from independent researchers and government agencies to either allay or increase any concerns about the use of Be. Due diligence is not difficult to do.

Edit2: Apparently Beryllium tastes sweet. Warning, don't have Beryllium desert!. :wink_face:

 

[MooMooMoooo]

Just search "headphone mod" on Google Images and you'll see headphone mods galore.  Headphone enthusiasts have that itch to open up the headphone and have a look and to experiement to see if they can change the sound.  The HD800 mods are a more recent and widespread example.  The danger is that the user is tinkering around the headphone in the first place and that a misplaced screwdriver, a slip of the hand, or the misplacement of material can result in damage to the Beryllium driver.  I think it's even more dangerous if the driver is in a protective cage because a user will try to break into that cage which increases the risk of contact with the driver.  I've never seen a mod that touches the diaphragm itself but the danger is that the user is tinkering around.  The manufacturer wouldn't be liable if it has taken reasonable steps to prevent user tampering ... but modders will mod.  The beryllium driver looks just like any other driver so the danger isn't apparrent.  Telling someone not to buy headphones isn't going to work because someone's going to buy it and decide to tinker.  A much more prominent warning might be a good idea given that user behaviour with headphones is quite different from user behaviour with tweeters in loudspeaker systems.
 
Certainly, with made up scenarios there is a reasonableness that is involved.  The manufacturer doesn't have to design headphones to withstand meteor strike or earthquake.  It just has to be safe in its expected operational environment.  Therein lies my concern.  I want to know that if I'm having normal usage listening sessions with the Focal Utopia headphones, such as an extended listening session, that the body heat and the perspiration within the earcup is not degrading the beryllium drivers and potentially poisoning me.
 
What is one email to a manufacturer?  Head-Fi is a forum that manufacturers pay attention to so raising it here is more likely to get a response than the concern of an individual customer sent by email.  I reach out to Focal to allay my concerns.  I've never been disuaded by an early adopter tax and I'm willing to pay a premium for the best.  I'm excited by the product and if they're safe I'll probably be one of the first to buy.  However, I want to be reassured.
 
About consumerism did you know that radium condoms was a thing once?  After radium was discovered it was the miracle substance.  There was radium soap, toothpaste, underwear, eye drops, suppositories, baby clothes...  It was the best thing ever ...

 

[x RELIC x]

If you've earned $4K to spend on a headphone then I'm sure you can read the extensive pages of ample (IMO) information and warnings they include with the headphone. These warnings include effects from different scenarios from touching to ingesting beryllium, warnings about use around children, and steps required if the driver is broken, and more. It's well documented with the headphone, even more so than I can find for their speakers.

For any who are concerned this is the email they include with the Utopia for more questions about beryllium:

beryllium@focal-fr.com

 

[musicday]

Self responsibility is the last resort of the scoundrel.  In that case let's not have barriers on balconies.  It's obvious to a person that they will fall to their deaths if they step over the edge so there's no need to have a barrier *sarcasm*  It doesn't remove the duty of care that rests with the manufacturer to make their products safe.  There is no accounting for human idiocy but a manufacturer has a duty at law to ensure that their products are safe.  I don't doubt that Focal as a reputable manufacturer has met those standards.  However, just look at all the product recalls that consumers are hit with regularly.  Also look at the recent death airbag recalls and Toyota recalls.  What concerns me is that beryllium is deadly and I am worried about that.  If you are trusting (institutional trust) then by all means just take their word for it.  However, when it's such a toxic material I would like to hear more than "it's safe" and instead hear, "it's safe because we've extensively tested it for those conditions".  A manufacturer doesn't have to explain, at least to a consumer, but it would go a long way if it did.

I fully agree with you here and see your point.
Especially given the price point of the product and not only and taking the big reputation Focal have in the audiophile world, i think is normal that they should step in an give a very clear statement about the beryllium used in Utopia once for all, so then the owners or future potential owners can fully enjoy them without no stress.

 

[FLTWS]

I've seen warnings on bags of fishing hooks that state that the product should not be swallowed as fatal injury could occur.
 
I wonder if that warning is for the humans or the fish?

 

[SearchOfSub]

   Quote:

Well that reminds me of messages like this nuclear reactor is safe so shut up about being worried that we're installing it in your back yard, or that fracking doesn't cause ground water contamination. Point being is that this isn't going to be effective at dispelling these kinds of concerns, research, experimentation, data, official legal statements from the vendor, etc would do this. I don't see any reason not to ask these questions. Someone is spending a lot of money on a toy. I find the points MooMooMoooo raises very interesting. They could be the greatest sounding headphones ever but your health is always worth more than the latest fad or gadget.


+1

Here's another contrived scenario. You're driving in a car with your new fancy headphones and get in a wreck. What if you're headphones are destroyed and you're trapped in your vehicle waiting on rescue... Or the kid or the dog gets a hold of them and tries to tear them up. I'm not saying it will happen but consider the possibility. I know nobody wants to find fault in the headphones but trying to shush people up on it is the wrong approach IMO. If you're not at all concerned about any potential risk you've either put in an order or you're saving to place your order soon.

This headphone remind me clearly of the events that took place in the movie - Erin Brokovich. (starring Julia Roberts.)