First Naim Experience

[jpr703]

The dealer that sold me my NAD player also sells Naim and I had a chance to listen to a CDS3 for about half an hour a few days ago. All I have to say is Wow!

I've never heard a digital player that sounded so much like vinyl. It was almost like listening to live music--absolutely incredible. Unfortunately, it's way out of my price league for the foreseeable future, but man, what a sound.

If you like vinyl and have some big bucks to drop on audio gear, I'd highly recommend checking out the Naim line. If not, stay far, far away--you might wind up selling your body on the street in order to save up for some!

 

[keiron99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpr703 I've never heard a digital player that sounded so much like vinyl.

What do you mean by that? There were scratches, rumbles and speed instability? Sorry to sound confrontational but I've never understood what is meant by "sounding like vinyl". Back in the 80s, the boss of Linn used to always complain about the sound of "digital". I suggest you read the following about a test he took part in many years ago, using outdated digital equipment by today's standards. Basically, they ran a record player through some Sony gear that digitised it. He could not tell with any accuracy whether it was in the loop or not.

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...x_testing2.htm

 

[tennisets]

For what it's worth, I've done a blind test between CD and vinyl on very high end equipment and could easily tell the difference. System was Wilson Maxx 2 speakers, MIT Oracle speaker cables, VTL Siegfried monoblocks, VTL TL-7.5 preamplifier, Straightwire Virtuoso interconnects, and Esoteric DV-50 universal player. Vinyl was a VPI TNT Mark V fed through a BAT VK-P10 phono preamp.

I left the room while one of my colleagues (this was at the store where I worked over the summer) synced the vinyl and CD playback. Music was Noran Jones - Come Away With Me on SACD and 200gm vinyl. There was no noticeable surface noise on the record unless there was no music playing at all.

The difference was obvious. On the SACD highs were sharper and sometimes sibilant, and the midrange lacked body compared to the vinyl. It was very easy to hear. If you ever have the oppurtunity to do such a test, you should take it. Mind you I had heard the difference before, but had not done a blind test. Also, if this post is not allowed due to the blind test, then it can be deleted. I just thought I'd relay my thoughts.

Also, for all the people who say a blind test will prove you can't hear differences, I seem remarkably adept at picking up the differences in cables under blind test conditions. I don't understand why people can't seem to hear the difference unless either their equipment is just not up to snuff or they don't know what to listen for. Differences are subtle, but easily discernable. Obviously, YMMV, but it shouldn't vary as much as it seems to.

 

[imported_dom_]

digitising an lp and then trying to tell the difference... thats kinda stupid.

but, on naim cd players.

you thought about second hand? you can get some cracking players still for not much.

but then you will have to get naim amplification to match

it is true what they say an all naim system sounds better than individual components.

get p.r.a.t to the max

 

[tennisets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_ it is true what they say an all naim system sounds better than individual components.

Except for the speakers... the speakers are really not very good. At the store where I worked we had a pair of Allae that had been on the floor for 4 years and not a single pair was ever sold. I listened to them, and I can see why no one ever bought them. They really sound lifeless and dull, and have NO headroom whatsoever. You couldn't even drive them above 85 dB without them sounding hard and just really bad. Those were probably some of the worst high end speakers I've ever heard. I can see how they would be good for something like chamber music, but that's honestly the only application I can think of for them, LOL. Man, I hated those speakers.

The electronics, on the other hand, are very good, especially all together. You can use the CD player with another company's amp, but you'll have to get an adapter cable since Naim uses DIN sockets on all their gear (well, they're putting RCAs on their gear now, but that's a recent development). But the components do sound much better as a whole system than individually.

 

[Garbz]

The speakers are very good when setup how they were designed. That is driven by Naim amps cdplayers powersupplys etc. But then how boring would that be

The Naim sounding like vinyl is the general concensus. Yes there are differences but I think the differences really boil down to vinyl has a sense of pace and rythem. It rocks and rolls. And it gives a very in your face presentation.

I also agree if you're a vinyl junky, the Naim CD5x or indeed any Naim cdplayer is for you!

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_ digitising an lp and then trying to tell the difference... thats kinda stupid.

Not really, a lot of the 1980s anti-digital lobby maintained that the very act of digitising degraded an analog signal since it goes from smooth to jagged. Thus any post-hoc A/D/A conversion should make the output worse as the reconstructed waveform could not be identical to the input.

It might have been better to have used analog master tapes instead of a TT to remove the LP artifacts.

 

[edstrelow]

I sometimes use the "sounds like analog" for praise of better digital sound. Of course then, when I actually listen to my analog sources I realize it should be "sounds like some of the better characteristics of analog sound, minus the analog crap", noted above, i.e. noise, wow, flutter, frequency response anomalies, reduced dynamics and treble, which is often distorted in loud passages either by the aforesaid limitations of dynamics, or by wear on the lp or stylus.

Nevertheless, digitization of sound is good but not perfect and comparison with a good analog source can be a way of learning what to look for in better digital reproduction.

 

[imported_dom_]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisets Except for the speakers... the speakers are really not very good. At the store where I worked we had a pair of Allae that had been on the floor for 4 years and not a single pair was ever sold. I listened to them, and I can see why no one ever bought them. They really sound lifeless and dull, and have NO headroom whatsoever. You couldn't even drive them above 85 dB without them sounding hard and just really bad. Those were probably some of the worst high end speakers I've ever heard. I can see how they would be good for something like chamber music, but that's honestly the only application I can think of for them, LOL. Man, I hated those speakers. The electronics, on the other hand, are very good, especially all together. You can use the CD player with another company's amp, but you'll have to get an adapter cable since Naim uses DIN sockets on all their gear (well, they're putting RCAs on their gear now, but that's a recent development). But the components do sound much better as a whole system than individually.

you NEED to hear a pair of sbls.

 

[keiron99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz I think the differences really boil down to vinyl has a sense of pace and rythem. It rocks and rolls. And it gives a very in your face presentation.

What do you mean by "pace" and "rhythm"? Sorry if I'm sounding facetious, but whether you're playing a CD, LP, minidisc, mp3 or whatever, we can assume they all play at the same speed!

 

[Garbz]

I didn't say speed. I said pace and rythm.

It's a quality which most turntables and few cdplayers like all NAIM players, the Marrantz CD7, and Electrocompaniet ECD-1 to name a few have. It's a swing like quality, and very hard to describe. But it's just the ability for a source to bring out something from a recording that simply makes it groove.

It's easy to see as people tend to tap their foot uncontrolably when it happens. And I find with the above said cdplayers I can do it to anything from metalica to classical.

Some cdplayers which I find don't swing very well are Mobile Fidelity 3.5CD, and Shanling CDT-100, and to a smaller degree Roksan Caspian. That said these are all very capable and detailed cdplayers. They just lack a certain sparkle. But some people like that. Sorry it doesn't get any better then that. It's hard enough to descibe distincitly audible signatures let alone these subtle qualities.

 

[Voodoochile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpr703 If not, stay far, far away--you might wind up selling your body on the street in order to save up for some!

Yeah... I'd need a buyer first. I don't see a line forming anywhere.

That's a glowing endorsement, otherwise!

 

[keiron99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz It's easy to see as people tend to tap their foot uncontrolably when it happens.

then they need to see a doctor!

Seriously, I just don't buy into that idea. I don't listen to "foot tapping" music for a start. I don't doubt for a moment that you may enjoy your music more through one system compared to another, but to suggest that people literally lose control of their feet when listening to an "analogue" source more than a "digital" one I just find hard to credit.

 

[skullguise]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz I didn't say speed. I said pace and rythm. It's a quality which most turntables and few cdplayers like all NAIM players, the Marrantz CD7, and Electrocompaniet ECD-1 to name a few have. It's a swing like quality, and very hard to describe. But it's just the ability for a source to bring out something from a recording that simply makes it groove. It's easy to see as people tend to tap their foot uncontrolably when it happens. And I find with the above said cdplayers I can do it to anything from metalica to classical. <snip>

Fully agree, re: PRAT. Can't say I've heard all the above players, but I've heard several NAIM players, and indeed they cause the foot to go a-tappin'!

I remember an experience from a few years back, at a shop in southern Massachusetts. They had a JA Michell turntable, an Accuphase CD player, all fed Air Tight preamp, and a couple different amps (Spectorn, Art Audio) driving Anthony Gallo's then-new Reference 2's.

Played several well-recorded and good performances on CD's, we were impressed at the imaging, the bass control, etc etc.

Played a Count Basie LP, and we all sat quietly and tapped our feet or hands. At the end of it, we looked at each other and smiled.

It's sometimes hard to articulate, but there's a "thereness" that we found that was almost intoxicating!

I get some of that from NAIM CD players and to some extent, their other electronics.

Like someone above mentioned, their speakers amy not be "there" as much as the electronics. I haven't enough experience listening to them, thoug what I've heard so far seems to put me in agreement.

 

[braillediver]

PRAT?

Ever hear a band that is Tight and on the money. It’s real and the toe tapping is a good example of the physical manifestation of the sound. Ever hear music that was technically done right but not have any emotion and was dull and sterile?

If you’ve never heard the gear then you don’t know.


For me the difference is like the difference between Grado and Sennhieser. Senn is sound stage and grandeur where Grado is toe tapping music, excitement like your onstage with the band where the fun is. I don’t think Senn has ever been described this way.

PRAT is also lovingly referred to as Boogie Factor. Gives you happy feet.


Mitch