[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTechKid /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its funny that you claim that this thread is 100 pages based on marketing proliferation, and yet you "wager" that the DAC STRAIGHT "would completely blow the uDAC out of the water" and all you use to support that statement is a copy/paste of Dave's marketing pitch from his sale site. From his site: I've owned the DAC STRAIGHT, and I subsequently sold it to buy the uDac. Sonic detail retrieval was better with the Dac to MY ears in MY chain, with MY taste in music. Yes the 2702 is a very capable Dac chip, but its all about implementation and its surrounding component build up that define its true prowess. The DAC STRAIGHT is a mediocre budget implementation of what the 2702 can truly achieve. I need only compare it to my Keces 151 (which mind you is twice the price) to illustrate what that particular DAC chip is capable of. Naturally YMMV.

I haven't heard it, so I was just making the point that based on the spec it warranted consideration. There are supposedly no buffers or anything to interfere with the sound of the DAC, so theoretically the implementation seems like it would avoid any of the undesirable coloration of the uDAC. You said it lacked the detail retrieval of the uDAC, so that is one report provides at least some useful information. I still doubt, however, that it could have any of the coloration of the uDAC, which is among the worst I've heard from anything.

Regarding the marketing comments, I just don't know how else to explain all the hype and cult-like luv for a DAC with so many obvious flaws. Maybe you have some better answer, I sure don't. It all looks like people jumping on a FOTM bandwagon to me, without really listening to something in a truly critical way. I just don't see how you can have a serious listen and not hear those flaws. It's not like I have "magic ears" or anything. The flaws are pretty obvious, and it's surprising to me that people who seem to have pretty good audio judgment otherwise can't hear the problems when it comes to this DAC. The only conclusion I can draw is that they are in the grip of a kind of marketing hype. I don't know how else to explain it.

 

[mr-teatime]

just my two cent: i'm using the udac paired with akg k 271 mkii as my office set up and in this environment they make total sense. the (closed) akg are overly neutral and the slightly warm coloring of the udac helps them coming to life. the udac is really small and portable, finds place in every drawer (i have to store my gear in a safe place). and finally i do care about how a product looks and feels, don't wanna see day in day out a undesigned diy dac box on my desk. i do recognize a channel imbalance, but since i can adjust the output volume software wise and crank up the volume on the udac i learned to live with it. imo one should consider the purpose and the environment of a product and adjust the judgement according to this - i wouldn't use the udac in my studio set up at home - i even never thought of it (this is more the place for apogee). - just wanted to emphasize that some products are working well (k271) together and other not so well (hd650?) ...

 

[K_19]

I've owned the DAC straight before and currently own the uDAC. I prefer the uDAC by sizeable margin personally because uDAC has more open, wider soundstage, better detail retrieval and stronger, more extended low end response. I loved the DAC Straight while I had it though, and what it does have going for it is relative balance. It's not as bottom end favoured as the uDAC and IMO is more neutral throughout. It was just a bit boring and without as much detail retrieval and soundstage as the Pico DAC I got afterwards as well as uDAC.

DAC Extasy I have no idea about as I've never tried it.

 

[TobaccoRoad]

Damn I didn't think it would be possible for someone to express so much hate on a $100 DAC.

I own a uDAC, but I'm hardly offended by userlander's opinion. All of you need to chill out.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_19 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've owned the DAC straight before and currently own the uDAC. I prefer the uDAC by sizeable margin personally because uDAC has more open, wider soundstage, better detail retrieval and stronger, more extended low end response. I loved the DAC Straight while I had it though, and what it does have going for it is relative balance. It's not as bottom end favoured as the uDAC and IMO is more neutral throughout. It was just a bit boring and without as much detail retrieval and soundstage as the Pico DAC I got afterwards as well as uDAC. DAC Extasy I have no idea about as I've never tried it.

These are the kinds of useful comments that are more along the lines of what we should be seeing here, imho. No need for personal attacking, just tell it like you hear it.

I think what's becoming clearer -- for me at least -- from these comments and from the other useful ones by CTechKid, is that there is a kind of tension here between "detail" and "neutrality" or "balance." Some people are apparently valuing what they perceive to be the detail of the uDAC despite its flaws in neutrality, while other people like me can't tolerate the lack of neutrality no matter what else is true about the detail, or anything else. To me it sounds imbalanced, and that makes it almost unlistenable, especially with headphones that accentuate those properties.

I think neutrality is almost always to be preferred, even if detail is more lacking, but that's just my opinion. So maybe that explains why I just don't think the uDAC is a very good DAC at all, while most other people here seem to think it's fine. (the Extasy has even better detail, btw, AND great balance/neutrality - maybe that's why I like it so much for the $$). I still don't know how you get around that uDAC high end - that seems more to be in the realm of "flaw" than preference - and I think the bump in the low end is artificial, too - but maybe some are able to overlook all that because of the price. I just can't deal with it no matter what the price is. I'd rather have something like the much cheaper HotUSB1, which didn't have as good detail or as good high/low extension as the uDAC, but which was again much more neutral and balanced. For me, that was much more enjoyable to listen to than the coloration, recession, etc. of the uDAC.

 

[CTechKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_19 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've owned the DAC straight before and currently own the uDAC. I prefer the uDAC by sizeable margin personally because uDAC has more open, wider soundstage, better detail retrieval and stronger, more extended low end response. I loved the DAC Straight while I had it though, and what it does have going for it is relative balance. It's not as bottom end favoured as the uDAC and IMO is more neutral throughout. It was just a bit boring and without as much detail retrieval and soundstage as the Pico DAC I got afterwards as well as uDAC. DAC Extasy I have no idea about as I've never tried it.

Sounds like we had very similar experiences/transition with the DAC STRAIGHT and uDAC. Both are very capable little units, but the uDAC wins the race.

If there's one thing about userlander, he definitely sticks to his guns, whether or not I agree with him.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTechKid /img/forum/go_quote.gif If there's one thing about userlander, he definitely sticks to his guns, whether or not I agree with him.

And he makes me want the DAC Extacy, but that's an upgrade for another time

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some kind of wolfson DAC. But you don't even have to go up to the Extasy for an improvement over the uDAC. I just got that one because he said it was his best DAC at the time and I was curious to compare it against what everyone was raving about in regard to the uDAC. I expected the uDAC to be a lot better, in fact, based on all the hype, thinking that the Extasy was the "budget" choice. Turns out I had it exactly backward. I would strongly wager that the DAC Straight for the same money as the uDAC would completely blow the uDAC out of the water. The Straight is based on PCM2702, which is an excellent, tried-and-true DAC, with no buffers or anything affecting the signal, just pure DAC coming through. I would imagine that has virtually none of the coloring like the uDAC has, and is much more "pure" and better sounding for the same money (last time I checked). So why aren't there 100 page threads about that DAC? One word only: marketing. Okay - maybe two words: FOTM.

My EF2 DAC/amp has a PCM2702E Japan DAC which is an upgrade over the Macbook headphone out; but the uDAC feeding the EF2 amp via the RCA inputs is a clear upgrade in detail and soundstage over the PCM2702E. I've experienced the PCM2702E DAC in the EF2, XM5 and 3MOVE; while you are merely speculating based on your hope that the PCM2702 would be better.

 

[K_19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif These are the kinds of useful comments that are more along the lines of what we should be seeing here, imho. No need for personal attacking, just tell it like you hear it. I think what's becoming clearer -- for me at least -- from these comments and from the other useful ones by CTechKid, is that there is a kind of tension here between "detail" and "neutrality" or "balance." Some people are apparently valuing what they perceive to be the detail of the uDAC despite its flaws in neutrality, while other people like me can't tolerate the lack of neutrality no matter what else is true about the detail, or anything else. To me it sounds imbalanced, and that makes it almost unlistenable, especially with headphones that accentuate those properties. I think neutrality is almost always to be preferred, even if detail is more lacking, but that's just my opinion. So maybe that explains why I just don't think the uDAC is a very good DAC at all, while most other people here seem to think it's fine. (the Extasy has even better detail, btw, AND great balance/neutrality - maybe that's why I like it so much for the $$). I still don't know how you get around that uDAC high end - that seems more to be in the realm of "flaw" than preference - and I think the bump in the low end is artificial, too - but maybe some are able to overlook all that because of the price. I just can't deal with it no matter what the price is. I'd rather have something like the much cheaper HotUSB1, which didn't have as good detail or as good high/low extension as the uDAC, but which was again much more neutral and balanced. For me, that was much more enjoyable to listen to than the coloration, recession, etc. of the uDAC.

My preference here has got a lot to do with my headphones of choice. The uDAC was bought solely to become a part of my secondary desktop rig, on which I listen to AKG K271 and K701 mainly (and very rarely when I need extra comfort, AD700). I'm not sure if you are familiar with those two headphones, but K271 is thin in the bass area and IMO has slightly hot treble, while K701 has that infamous upper mid spike along with arguably lean bass. The uDAC's sound signature helps out balance, what IMO, is the shortcomings of these two headphones very well, making it more neutral to my ears. Going back to the early parts of this thread, I always thought that this wasn't the best match with something like the HD650's, as it only highlights their weaknesses further and doesn't address their needs much. Nor would I use it with something like HD238's or HD530's which are similar in SS.

I should also mention that I absolutely despise any sort of pronounced upper midrange peak. K701 matched wrong crosses that line for me, and this is also the reason why I hate any Grados with bowl pads. My ears seem to be very sensitive to that particular region. So clearly, we do have different preferences and tolerances as sound quality is concerned... which of course is expected, and perfectly ok.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif My EF2 DAC/amp has a PCM2702E Japan DAC which is an upgrade over the Macbook headphone out; but the uDAC feeding the EF2 amp via the RCA inputs is a clear upgrade in detail and soundstage over the PCM2702E. I've experienced the PCM2702E DAC in the EF2, XM5 and 3MOVE; while you are merely speculating based on your hope that the PCM2702 would be better.

I was a former DAC Straight owner (my first foray into a USB DAC) and it was a nice $100 USB DAC. The customer service from Dave at Hotaudio was absolutely fantastic.

But with that said, I prefer the uDAC, I do hear more detail from it and prefer the sound stage imaging. As well, really like the uDAC as an amp/DAC with IEMs (zero hiss even with my really sensitive Westone 3s). And all for about the same money.

Just my two cents...

 

[userlander]

So the uDAC > PCM2702 for soundstage and detail. Fair enough - my comments were in fact based solely on speculation, which I think I made clear.

But I didn't hear anything about neutrality and balance.

If you say the uDAC betters the 2702 even there, I'll suspect you all are not really being objective.

 

[Yikes]

it's not his opinion that pisses people off, it's the way that he expresses it.

Quote:

the fact that this forum seems to think this is some great sounding dac doesn't say much for the credibility of head-fi

Here he's insinuating that if you like the uDac your credibility is in question.

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If you can't hear that, you either have not heard any other DACs that are better, or you're just not being honest.

Here he is saying that if you have heard "better" DAC's and still like the uDac that you must be lying.

Quote:

if you can't hear that, you either have not compared the uDAC properly to other, better and more neutral dacs, or you are not being honest for some reason.

Once again if you like the uDac your either lying or lack experience.

Quote:

If you say you don't hear them, you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're just not being honest. And that's no exaggeration.

Here he is once again attacking the credibility of everyone who happens to like the uDac.

Quote:

On the other hand, there is a LOT of motive for someone to ignore any faults of a $99 dac and brush those criticisms under the rug with an "oh boy " or a condescending and patronizing comment like "I give up." Namely, lots of money at stake. When marketing forces like that are involved, and when people seem to be more interested in jumping on a FOTM bandwagon than in getting to the truth of something, it might not be so accurate to say that everyone's opinion is equally valid.

Here with no foundation he attacks HeadphoneAddict's motivations.

Quote:

Do any of you actually know what "neutrality" means?

Here he insinuates that no one who likes the uDac knows what neutrality is. For some reason he believes that he is the sole arbiter of quality.

Quote:

The uDAC has sizzle, thin, and grainy highs compared to other DACs I compared it to. That is not an "opinion," that is a fact. It also has recessed mids and bloated mid-bass compared to those other dacs. If you then make a judgment on those facts, like "it still sounded good anyway," that is an opinion. So don't mix up opinion and fact.

Here he obnoxiously insists that his opinions are facts, and that other peoples opinions are only opinions.

Quote:

I would strongly wager that the DAC Straight for the same money as the uDAC would completely blow the uDAC out of the water. The Straight is based on PCM2702, which is an excellent, tried-and-true DAC, with no buffers or anything affecting the signal, just pure DAC coming through. I would imagine that has virtually none of the coloring like the uDAC has, and is much more "pure" and better sounding for the same money

Here he pushes a product that he has never heard, which is very fanboyish or dare I say; even Shill like.

On another matter, based upon his description of the uDacs sound (Which is very different than what most experienced users have found) I seriously suspect that his uDac may have been defective. He describes "Dropouts", I heard no dropouts. He describes a "Sizzle" high end, once again many of us have found the opposite to be true.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's not his opinion that pisses people off, it's the way that he expresses it. Here he's insinuating that if you like the uDac your credibility is in question. Here he is saying that if you have heard "better" DAC's and still like the uDac that you must be lying. Once again if you like the uDac your either lying or lack experience. Here he is once again attacking the credibility of everyone who happens to like the uDac. Here with no foundation he attacks HeadphoneAddict's motivations. Here he insinuates that no one who likes the uDac knows what neutrality is. For some reason he believes that he is the sole arbiter of quality. Here he obnoxiously insists that his opinions are facts, and that other peoples opinions are only opinions. Here he pushes a product that he has never heard, which is very fanboyish or dare I say; even Shill like. On another matter, based upon his description of the uDacs sound (Which is very different than what most experienced users have found) I seriously suspect that his uDac may have been defective. He describes "Dropouts", I heard no dropouts. He describes a "Sizzle" high end, once again many of us have found the opposite to be true.

Again - as we've already been over - all my comments were made in response to people attacking me with their smug and patronizing comments just for saying I thought the Clip sounded better. If you continue to attack me, I'm going to respond. And you're probably not going to like the response. The intelligent thing to do in that case is stop attacking people just because they don't like the uDAC. Then these threads won't go on for pages with these stupid arguments. You fanboys just can't leave it alone when someone says something sounds better than your precious uDAC. You have to roll your eyes and make snide comments. That's the source of the problem. Not me.

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TobaccoRoad /img/forum/go_quote.gif Damn I didn't think it would be possible for someone to express so much hate on a $100 DAC. I own a uDAC, but I'm hardly offended by userlander's opinion. All of you need to chill out.

Yah chill out guys! and Userlander leave the attackers alone so that theyll quiet down hehehe.

I respect everyones opinions on the udacs sound quality, even userlanders. Lets not fight about it and continue the udac love and hatefest in a more decent manner

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by userlander /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again - as we've already been over - all my comments were made in response to people attacking me with their smug and patronizing comments just for saying I thought the Clip sounded better. If you continue to attack me, I'm going to respond. And you're probably not going to like the response. The intelligent thing to do in that case is stop attacking people just because they don't like the uDAC. Then these threads won't go on for pages with these stupid arguments. You fanboys just can't leave it alone when someone says something sounds better than your precious uDAC. You have to roll your eyes and make snide comments. That's the source of the problem. Not me.

You really are dense if you think I'm a uDac fanboy. Go back and read my posts in this thread. Do I own one, yes, but if you followed the thread you'd find that I periodically chime in in an effort to temper some of the enthusiasm for the uDac. I believe the uDac is a nice toy for $99, but it doesn't compete with any number of more expensive DAC's.

I truly don't mind anyone knocking the uDac or any other product that I own, unlike you I have embraced the universal truth that there are different strokes for different folks. I make every effort to express my opinions without denigrating everyone Else's.

You should be practicing your Bloging, because it's only a matter of time before you are permabanned.