Final topic for my first good headphones.

[phone cone]

Alright if you followed my previous topics you know I was wanting a full-sized headphone and not a canal one. Well I listened to one of my friends canal phones and they ruled! I must have tried a cruddy pair. Well since I will use them with some dvd watching I want them to have a decent soundstage. Of cource they'll be isolated so no need to mention that. I have no amp just plug in and go I'll likely use them for music on my cd player/ portable cdplayer and dvd movies into the headphone jack. I was thinking about the ER6i. What do you recconmend? Thanks, Matthew.

 

[EdipisReks]

the soundstage of canalphones is never that great. the ER6i's really make the sound seem to come from the middle of my head and then radiate out. i would probably look at some nice circumaural closed cans if you want a good soundstage. if the soundstage isn't really that super critical, i think the ER6i would be a good choice. i love them to death.

 

[Geek]

I thought that the pair of ER-4S that I had could produce an amazing soundstage if you use them with an amp with crossfeed. I'm talking pretty darned good. The lower end Etys I'm sure have a similar sonic signature. What I'm not a fan of is the highs on canal phones; the ER-4S has a very colored high end in my opinion probably due to resonances in the plastic earplugs. If you arent bothered by colorations a pair of isolating canal phones would be something great to try out.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[Spankypoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdipisReks the soundstage of canalphones is never that great.

I disagree. In fact, I submit that some (if not most) of the reason for the opinion that canalphones have an 'inside your head' soundstage is psychological - knowing you have canalphones gives you the idea that it's going to sound that way.

Unless someone can show me the pinna contains nerves sensitive enough to transmit meaningful data due to sound pressure waves, or that the first 1/3 of the auditory canal serves the same purpose, I'll have a hard time believing that canalphones/IEMs have an inherently narrow soundstage. Definitely, headphones which have strong bass will cause you to feel it on your pinna and the surrounding bone, which will change your perception of soundstage, but I don't think it's enough of a factor to be an inherent limitation in canalphones.

I've heard canalphones which present tremendous soundstaging, and others which perform poorly in that regard, and can't help but wonder if some of the opinions out there aren't partially influenced by their knowledge of where the speakers actually reside. How much of a factor that is, I don't know. I suppose we'd have to numb somebody's ears and do blind tests.

 

[MD1032]

How about some of those HD 25's? I've heard they're pretty good, but I don't know much about their soundstage.

 

[lindrone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spankypoo I disagree. In fact, I submit that some (if not most) of the reason for the opinion that canalphones have an 'inside your head' soundstage is psychological - knowing you have canalphones gives you the idea that it's going to sound that way.

Not true, will explain below.


Quote:

Unless someone can show me the pinna contains nerves sensitive enough to transmit meaningful data due to sound pressure waves, or that the first 1/3 of the auditory canal serves the same purpose, I'll have a hard time believing that canalphones/IEMs have an inherently narrow soundstage. Definitely, headphones which have strong bass will cause you to feel it on your pinna and the surrounding bone, which will change your perception of soundstage, but I don't think it's enough of a factor to be an inherent limitation in canalphones.

The outer ear has no nerve endings whatsoever (edit: errr.. yeah, it has nerve endings, just nothing to do with sound... it still hurts when you pinch it). However, the reason why you can't get the same type of soundstage without outer ears being involved in part of the listening experience, is due to the fact that your outer ear "shapes" the sound.

The ridges and curvatures of your outer ear changes the way sound enters your ears. It acts as its own acoustic chamber, think of it the same way a concert hall is designed. The way sound reflect and refract off your outer ear is one part of many other complicated issue that helps you determine sound location and distance.

Without your outer ears, all the spatial cues that your brain naturally receives through this acoustic resonance caused by your outer ear disappears.


Quote:

I've heard canalphones which present tremendous soundstaging, and others which perform poorly in that regard, and can't help but wonder if some of the opinions out there aren't partially influenced by their knowledge of where the speakers actually reside. How much of a factor that is, I don't know. I suppose we'd have to numb somebody's ears and do blind tests.

Some canalphones does a great job, because they account for the acoustic resonance and simulate it to a certain degree. Some canalphones doesn't do a very good job at all. However, I find myself a poor judge of canalphone soundstage in comparison to headphone soundstage over time. My brain has adjusted to both type of sound, so neither of them sound "strange" to me now. I can still tell to an extent, the difference between the two soundstage, but canalphone no longer sounds unnatural to me as it first did when I had my first pair.

With that said, I think so far, the best soundstage out of any canalphone that I've heard is the Sensaphonic ProPhonic 2X-S. It is the closest proximity to a headphone soundstage I've gotten out of any canalphone, and even beats some headphone in terms of its soundstage.

However, in general consideration, canalphones doesn't do soundstage as well as headphones.

 

[Spankypoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone the reason why you can't get the same type of soundstage without outer ears being involved in part of the listening experience, is due to the fact that your outer ear "shapes" the sound.

Correct, the ear has gobs of nerves in it.

You're correct about the shaping issue - I agree. But some biopsychologists believe the nerves in the ear do play a part in our perception of sound - but they think it's very minor. That's the only argument I'd readily accept for the disadvantage of canalphones when it comes to soundstaging, but I don't believe it's significant enough to matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone The ridges and curvatures of your outer ear changes the way sound enters your ears. It acts as its own acoustic chamber, think of it the same way a concert hall is designed. The way sound reflect and refract off your outer ear is one part of many other complicated issue that helps you determine sound location and distance. Some canalphones does a great job, because they account for the acoustic resonance and simulate it to a certain degree....

I completely agree. And I believe you'd still have people claiming the soundstage is 'inside their head' when using such canalphones. Etymotic claims to account for this compensation, as do Sensa - but you'd still find people who are too freaked out by the idea that the drivers are inside their head and would out-smart themselves into disliking the soundstage by that reason alone.

IMO, I think if a person finds canalphones/IEMs incapable of producing a wide, spacious soundstage, it's more due to psychology than physics, if that makes sense.

That said, if they truly believe canalphones can't do the trick for them, then they've got to go with that and buy something else - I don't think explaining it is going to change anybody's perception.

 

[lindrone]

Well, if you ever heard any binaural recording, you will understand just how great the capability of your outer ear really is. Someone else should chime in with some great binaural audio example, or you can just search the forum for them.

Basically, binaural recording involves the usage of a "dummy head" that has molded outer ears, and with microphone placed inside each of the dummy head's ear. Then sounds are played back via various methods around the head, and the recording is then taken from the mic.

The type of realism in the soundstage and sound imaging is unreal. It is especially good when played back using IEM (avoiding the double outer ear processing, since it was already recorded with outer ear being involved). There's no other "magic" to this recording method whatsoever other than just using a dummy head and fake ears. Go try it, you'll understand exactly what the outer ear does for processing sound after that.

I do believe that canalphones can produce very good soundstage, but only the high-end canalphone have this capability well developed. The soundstage of Shure E5c and Ety ER-4, compared to their full-size, similarly priced headphone counterpart is more than a bit lacking.