FiiO X7 | DXD | DSD | 384K/64B | ESS9018+ Android | WiFi | Bluetooth | 4 AMP modules | Balanced Out |
Feb 28, 2016 at 4:57 AM Post #9,961 of 18,016

Dobrescu George

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Differences between any smartphone and my X5II are noticeable by anyone, under any circumstances with any headphones or IEMs. I did this out of fun. Not everyone heard the differences between mp3 320 and flac at first, but between any smartphone you can name vs X5II, everyone said it sounded different. Even with buds that come free with smartphones. 
 
Also, my X5II without eq sounds better than a cowon j3 with all it's enhancements possible, I own one and tested this in depth. 
 
I think that there will be a smartphone that sounds as good as a dedicated audiophile player, when there will be a smartphone thicker and bigger than this. And my 5,5" smartphone is biggest thing I can actually still fit in my pockets. I do not carry audiophile players in pockets (fear of damaging the 3.5mm connector, and as a method against un-intentional button presses), so my DAP can be as big as it takes to sound it's best. 
 
Just my view
biggrin.gif

 
Feb 28, 2016 at 8:27 AM Post #9,964 of 18,016

M-13

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X7ii has been announced... so it begins... Haha
 
Fiio usually updates every 18 months for there DAPs so it's not surprising... the X7ii will be pretty amazing I bet. The DAP market will continue to grow... AK will probably have a $10,000 AK720 by then...
rolleyes.gif
not to mention a dozen super hyped up DAPs come and go in the next couple of years...
 
But before the new X7 will be the new X1,3,5... I wonder if the wheel will be gone and everything's going to be touch screen?
 
If Fiio made the X5iii compatible with X7 Amp modules.. that would be a killer move James
wink.gif
(Hint)
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 9:19 AM Post #9,965 of 18,016

KC33

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It is great that you found headphones that you like. 
 
I wonder though what you did not like about ie800. I found them perfect. I will take a guess though. Too much bass?
biggrin.gif


it was the "muddy" treble. i say muddy, which it isn't, but i'm used to Grado IEMs, and full sized Grado headphones. i live on treble :wink:

Dunu2Kj  :thumbsup:
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 10:00 AM Post #9,966 of 18,016

Sonic Defender

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  Differences between any smartphone and my X5II are noticeable by anyone, under any circumstances with any headphones or IEMs. I did this out of fun. Not everyone heard the differences between mp3 320 and flac at first, but between any smartphone you can name vs X5II, everyone said it sounded different. Even with buds that come free with smartphones. 
 
Also, my X5II without eq sounds better than a cowon j3 with all it's enhancements possible, I own one and tested this in depth. 
 
I think that there will be a smartphone that sounds as good as a dedicated audiophile player, when there will be a smartphone thicker and bigger than this. And my 5,5" smartphone is biggest thing I can actually still fit in my pockets. I do not carry audiophile players in pockets (fear of damaging the 3.5mm connector, and as a method against un-intentional button presses), so my DAP can be as big as it takes to sound it's best. 
 
Just my view
biggrin.gif

Circuits get smaller all the time. In my lifetime computers have gone from massive structures that occupied floors of buildings to tiny things that you can wear on your wrist. There is no reason to think that audio devices will not follow suit.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 11:03 AM Post #9,967 of 18,016

Dobrescu George

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  Circuits get smaller all the time. In my lifetime computers have gone from massive structures that occupied floors of buildings to tiny things that you can wear on your wrist. There is no reason to think that audio devices will not follow suit.

 
 
In our hobby, energy consumption is much more than in other areas, and same is heat production. In computers, result needed is binary data, and not higher voltage swing or higher energy output. Better DAC and CPU and DSP circuits will help us with much better SQ though !
 
I would really want to see transducer technology advancing with the same speed as circuits. 
 
All in all, I believe that the biggest problem with DAPs is that they need big batteries and big power amplifiers, and this is why they are big. Not to mention that some capacitors are quite big, and cannot be integrated, and using smaller ones usually results in either reduced life expectancy or lower sound quality. I am fine with size, as long as it sounds better and better though. 
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 11:19 AM Post #9,969 of 18,016

Sonic Defender

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All in all, I believe that the biggest problem with DAPs is that they need big batteries and big power amplifiers, and this is why they are big. Not to mention that some capacitors are quite big, and cannot be integrated, and using smaller ones usually results in either reduced life expectancy or lower sound quality. I am fine with size, as long as it sounds better and better though. 

Everything electronic is getting smaller and innovation is constant (I know you realize this). In 5 years time I would be shocked if we still need thick heavy devices to play music on. Now that the big players have identified the audiophile consumer as worth targeting with phones it is only a matter of time until they start putting some serious R&D into making a phone a viable DAP, and as I said, my Leap already sounds really good. Yes I realize in direct comparison against something as awesome as the X7 it will not be as good, no argument there, but consider this is audio performance just thrown into the phone with no intent to be a DAP and it certainly sounds good. Imagine when phone companies decide to make audio as high priority as cameras.
 
Maybe FiiO can partner with LG and be their audio house! Anyway, I'm not going so far as to suggests the dedicated DAP is dead, that would be a bold prediction, but I think it is about to face very stiff competition from cell phones, very stiff competition. Competition is great as it spurs on innovation.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 12:41 PM Post #9,970 of 18,016

bavinck

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Everything electronic is getting smaller and innovation is constant (I know you realize this). In 5 years time I would be shocked if we still need thick heavy devices to play music on. Now that the big players have identified the audiophile consumer as worth targeting with phones it is only a matter of time until they start putting some serious R&D into making a phone a viable DAP, and as I said, my Leap already sounds really good. Yes I realize in direct comparison against something as awesome as the X7 it will not be as good, no argument there, but consider this is audio performance just thrown into the phone with no intent to be a DAP and it certainly sounds good. Imagine when phone companies decide to make audio as high priority as cameras.

Maybe FiiO can partner with LG and be their audio house! Anyway, I'm not going so far as to suggests the dedicated DAP is dead, that would be a bold prediction, but I think it is about to face very stiff competition from cell phones, very stiff competition. Competition is great as it spurs on innovation.


I think we are agree with you that tech will change. Part of Georges point is that due to chemistry constraints (battery) and electrical engineering issues (OP amps and transducers) the size of daps may not change much for those that demand high sq.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 12:58 PM Post #9,971 of 18,016

Sonic Defender

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I think we are agree with you that tech will change. Part of Georges point is that due to chemistry constraints (battery) and electrical engineering issues (OP amps and transducers) the size of daps may not change much for those that demand high sq.

Well, we mostly agree, but I think the definition of SQ being that different is debatable. I have heard my friends LG. V10, trust me it sounds really good. I'm not sure in blind listening tests it would be easy to distinguish from most DAPs.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 1:54 PM Post #9,972 of 18,016

Joe Bloggs

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One thing to consider, is that hi-end audio can only be as portable or as convenient as its connoisseurs want it to be. There's no use packing state-of-the-art DAC and amplification circuitry into a DAP the size of a cigarette lighter, if people are just going to go "No ship that small has a cloaking device!" on us. In this respect, portable players, never mind smartphones, have always been at a disadvantage compared to desktop rigs.

:wink:
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 2:51 PM Post #9,973 of 18,016

Sonic Defender

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One thing to consider, is that hi-end audio can only be as portable or as convenient as its connoisseurs want it to be. There's no use packing state-of-the-art DAC and amplification circuitry into a DAP the size of a cigarette lighter, if people are just going to go "No ship that small has a cloaking device!" on us. In this respect, portable players, never mind smartphones, have always been at a disadvantage compared to desktop rigs.

wink.gif


For sure, but I think we have seen what is "practically" portable with fairly large phones being accepted on mass. The general constraint which really isn't going to change is will it fit in pockets and small bags, and can it be held easily enough. I think people value a decent sized screen and thinness where possible so it isn't like phones have to become smaller. And I think with modularity in mind having say an audiophile inspired DAC/amp module being an option is quite feasible, but I guess I don't need to tell the FiiO X7 thread that do I?
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Post #9,974 of 18,016

bavinck

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  Well, we mostly agree, but I think the definition of SQ being that different is debatable. I have heard my friends LG. V10, trust me it sounds really good. I'm not sure in blind listening tests it would be easy to distinguish from most DAPs.

That's cool that the v10 sounds good. If a phone can sound as good as my mojo/x7 (which I think are on par basically) then I am all in. The x7 does have problems with EMR interference though, not sure how phone manufacturers would solve that if Fiio can't....and it would be worse with a phone where all the antennas are on by use,.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 3:15 PM Post #9,975 of 18,016

Sonic Defender

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  That's cool that the v10 sounds good. If a phone can sound as good as my mojo/x7 (which I think are on par basically) then I am all in. The x7 does have problems with EMR interference though, not sure how phone manufacturers would solve that if Fiio can't....and it would be worse with a phone where all the antennas are on by use,.


These are all issues of a technical nature, and I'm quite sure that if market forces drive the innovation, within five years these problems will be history. It is all money, if the market is large enough, the capital investment can be cost-monetized across many units making it a commercially viable undertaking. Given the number of headphones I see everywhere, and surprisingly across a wider age-demographic than I might have expected, I suspect the marketplace is there and as said before, so does LG and Sony, and quite a few other phone manufacturers who seem to target better sounding phones.
 
I also think the elephant in the room is the cost of having any appreciable sound quality difference between say a DAP, and smartphone. I think as reasonable people we know full well that something like the V10 can sound pretty close to most modest priced DAPs, which I consider the X7 and DP-X1 to be. The big question will be if I know I need to carry a phone anyway, and that I think we know is going to be the question the vast majority of people will answer yes to, the next question is how much better would a DAP have to sound to justify another expensive device in my pocket? At this point in time I think for many of us here this is a decision we are willing to make. But what happens when our phone becomes say $1000 - $1300 and the carrier helps us buy it, and the sound quality gap really closes as the phone companies pump in a decent little amp and DAC? Suddenly you are looking at a serious dilemma, two devices or one?
 
I love DAPs, and I pray there will always be a viable marketplace for them, but I think assuming that smartphones aren't a real threat to produce audiophile quality sound is very short-sighted. Hell I look at the DP-X1 and it is actually small enough that I wonder how much bigger would it have to be to add a phone into it? Anyway, I am digressing, but I just don't see that there can be any reasonable doubt that smartphones are going to get much better audio sections in them sooner than later. 
 

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