FiiO X7 | DXD | DSD | 384K/64B | ESS9018+ Android | WiFi | Bluetooth | 4 AMP modules | Balanced Out |
Jan 7, 2015 at 8:12 AM Post #2,296 of 18,019
There is no direct sound quality benefit to upsampling --- like mentioned, you can't create something from nothing.

Rather, it is an engineering benefit. Signal reconstruction requires a process called convolution, which is low-pass filtering the impulse train. This is not an analog low-pass filter; it is a digital one --- that's what people refer to as the "digital filter". Brickwall filters usually contain a lot of pre-/post-ringing. Shallow filters are bad at suppressing aliasing images. The ones that have the best properties of both worlds (i.e. good rejection of aliasing and low ringing) are complicated. Complicated filters require a lot of processing power, e.g. the one used on the Chord Hugo, which is why readily built-in filters are often not preferred by engineers, given enough time, budget, and processing power. If you upsample, you raise the Nyquist limit beyond the hearing range, which makes filter designs a lot easier because they can be constructed shallowly. This is less work for the engineer, and it makes component selection easier as well.

The Sony actually has least penalty to the act of upsampling, processor-wise, because its D/A conversion is dependent upon altering the speed and length of 1s and 0s in its digital timer (usually with an MCU). The operational bottleneck is basically a simple function of the rate at which the chip itself operates. However, the technical issue with these PWM DACs is noise --- capacitors don't switch instantaneously, they have finite filling/dumping times, so these switches need to not only switch in time with the data, but also relative to each other; naturally, high-frequency capacitor switching creates a lot of noise if not well-managed. Thus, the issues it has to overcome are mostly electronic in nature --- if they can overcome noise issues in designing switching capacitors and a very clean constant power supply, then they are essentially able to create highly efficient DACs with minimal parts. Choosing good parts for those few critical components is a romantic approach that many designers hope for, rather than having to optimize many components together.

However, since we're on the topic of the X7, upsampling itself is an issue relevant to all DACs, even to the X7. FiiO engineers will have the ability to load custom digital filters into the X7 (via the SoC and its ROM) if they so choose, or choose from the built-in Sabre filters, which are fast or slow roll-off symmetrical FIR filters. The choice of filters will have an impact on the sound produced by the X7, as each different filter will have different aliasing suppression properties, group delay, and dispersion. The master clock choice and frequency for the X7 will also help determine the amount of oversampling the X7 employs with the ES9018 (the desktop version ES9018 has some restrictions to what features on the chip can be turned on/off, and thus many people use workarounds to force the chip into certain modes), in addition to the jitter introduced by the clocks.

The point is, there are technical challenges for all digital designs, regardless of the choice. Some of the challenges are overlapping, others are not the same. We cannot just say one is better than the other merely by discussing small marketing choices. Sony has gone all in with its high-resolution audio push and they have indeed put their know-how into this new wave, in the hopes that it'll pay off for them in the long run, whilst continuing to work on this technology. Is the ZX2 kind of a rip-off at its price? Almost certainly. But it should still sound very good, and there will be people who buy it. No need to knock the hustle. The PHA-3 serves as their fallback, using traditional, tried and true techniques of D/A conversion with the ES9018K2M, etc.

At the same time, and this is the main point, because this is the X7 thread, FiiO has a host of challenges ahead of it to make the best possible halo product for its brand. Given their exponential improvement in engineering ability and software capability in a short amount of time, FiiO is deserving of recognition for continuing to work at its products while always pricing things at a point that is always reasonable. Four years ago, FiiO products were at best average and mostly mediocre (no need to sugarcoat it). They've improved drastically in the last couple of years. Now, they have a product in the works that can possibly dethrone or at the very least match competitors at many times its own cost.

Thank you tomscy2000 for the informative post. I was harsh on Sony as I stated in my original post edit. As you mentioned in the fist line of your last post we are saying the same thing and when I hear it from a company marketing the fact to many people on a YouTube interview it strikes a chord. He says specifically that DSEE HX "upsamples everything" and I called marketing baloney as to the benefit, and then it blew up. I apologize to the readers of this thread for derailing it as I know how tedious it can be. Next time I'll be much more specific to avoid misunderstanding.

I agree with all points regarding FiiO and also feel they have come a long way.

:beerchug:
 
Jan 7, 2015 at 8:14 AM Post #2,297 of 18,019
Since when did you listen to what a marketing guy says? :grin:

Don't forget Sony is also catering to as many audience as possible. If you look at the ZX2's spec list you know that at least half of the items has little or nothing to do with music playback. But to an average joe it looks superior compared to what X7 has on it's spec sheet.


Well, my wife or kids might see it and buy me a ZX2 instead of an X7 :eek:

Of course, she knows by now not to.
 
Jan 7, 2015 at 8:16 AM Post #2,298 of 18,019
Well, my wife might see it and buy me a ZX2 instead of an X7
eek.gif


Of course, she knows by now not to.

 
 
Even so, having a wife who tries to buy you expensive DAPs... well, let's face it.... that's a heck of a luxury problem! 
biggrin.gif

 
Jan 7, 2015 at 8:18 AM Post #2,299 of 18,019
Even so, having a wife who tries to buy you expensive DAPs... well, let's face it.... that's a heck of a luxury problem!  :D


But she doesn't work............. So technically I'd be buying it. :D
 
Jan 8, 2015 at 12:35 AM Post #2,302 of 18,019
  and there are analog volume control ( although it is digital volume display ). 

I can recall saying this a long way back in the thread- that DSD needs analog volume control.  Then there was a bunch of debate about right/wrong and the consensus was that it was partly right.  
 
Whatever, not trying to rehash that discussion, I am just glad that "real" DSD is being included in the X7.  Thank you, James, for clearing that up.  
 
It looks to me like the X7 will cost half what the Sony will list for and will do virtually the same things (only, maybe, hopefully, better).  Fiio has been proving itself in the last few model runs and is in the ascendancy, whereas Sony is in decline (the last Sony TV I bought lasted 2-3 years and died).  The old gray mare she ain't what she used to be.  
 
Jan 8, 2015 at 6:59 AM Post #2,304 of 18,019
Tomscy2000, honestly not trying to be argumentative, but please explain how creating(interpolating) more samples (speaking about sample rate) from less samples is beneficial, besides increasing processor load, specifically in the process of converting from non-hi-rez 16/44.1 to high rez audio as stated by Sony... I've read much on the subject and a very simple and basic analogy for me would be uprezing SD to HD. it never looks good...


I imagine DSEE-HX is something along the lines of this
http://lib.tkk.fi/Dipl/2005/urn007914.pdf
as described in 2.3.2--"Blind" bandwidth extension
(reading at least the whole of section 2.3 would help you understand more of what it's about.

There is a "spectrum extension" feature in the free Viper4Android app that plays with expanding the spectrum of low-bitrate mp3s to cover the full spectrum of the sample rate supported by the android phone (44.1kHz or 48kHz)
 
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Jan 8, 2015 at 7:16 AM Post #2,305 of 18,019
  The full block diagram of balanced output for X7.   

 
The basic schematic looks great --- I imagine the major challenge of such a design would be to control tolerances and channel match all the parts going into the unit whilst economizing mass production capability. The big challenge of using analog volume control would be to suppress Johnson noise to low enough levels such that it doesn't have a significantly negative impact on performance. A sufficiently low-noise analog volume control is very difficult to get right.
 
Jan 8, 2015 at 7:19 AM Post #2,306 of 18,019
  The full block diagram of balanced output for X7. 

Any chances to disclose what OPAmps, bufs and volume controls are used?
 
Jan 8, 2015 at 8:13 AM Post #2,308 of 18,019
   
The basic schematic looks great --- I imagine the major challenge of such a design would be to control tolerances and channel match all the parts going into the unit whilst economizing mass production capability. The big challenge of using analog volume control would be to suppress Johnson noise to low enough levels such that it doesn't have a significantly negative impact on performance. A sufficiently low-noise analog volume control is very difficult to get right.

Wasn't it decided for X7 to use PGA2311 instead of analog volume control?
 
Jan 8, 2015 at 8:27 AM Post #2,309 of 18,019
  Wasn't it decided for X7 to use PGA2311 instead of analog volume control?


I don't know if it's set that they're using the PGA2311. They could be using the MUSES72320, or some other chip. These are what are known as "digitally-controlled analog volume control" ICs, and they too generate intrinsic thermal noise that may deteriorate performance.
 
EDIT: The smart way of doing things is to use a mixture of digital and analog volume control. Map out the noise generation of the analog system with respect to volume attenuation, and optimize it against the digital volume control built-into the DAC, for least deterioration of dynamic range. Essentially, use analog control at very low volumes, but a mixture of digital and analog at mid volumes, and digital volume control at high volumes. But such a system will require extensive control and logic systems that may take some time to implement. It would be a pretty cool and elegant solution, however.
 

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