FiiO M15 Audio Player | Dual AK4499EQ | 7490 mAh Battery | 64 GB ROM | $1299.99
Feb 10, 2020 at 7:23 AM Post #1,066 of 4,083
What about MediaTek SoC like Helio G90T that you can find in cheap smartphones like Redmi Note 8 Pro ?

If MIUI is running Android 9 , it's because MediaTek update their SDK.

I don't know , and maybe you can enlighten me about this , but are MediaTek recent SoC more expansive than 2 years old Samsung mid-range SoC ?

The thing is , MediaTek , like Qualcomm and Rockchip are brand that only make SoC , while Samsung (Exynos) , Huawei (Kirin) ... are in a variety of market.
Few devices are using Exynos & Kirin , comparing to MediaTek , Qualcomm and Rockship.
So you have better chance of having a up-to-date SDK with manufacturer like MediaTek or Qualcomm than Samsung or Huawei , this is why i said it was a bad choice for choosing Exynos.

These mobile phone manufacturers are targeting millions of customers, not a few hunderd or thousand, so you cannot go to these chip manufacturers and ask for support + 1000 chips. For a small company with a niche market that doesn't work. If it would work, Samsung would already support FiiO for bringing Android 9 to their platform. That is the problem, not that FiiO is not willing to do it.

Just had a look at G90T:

CPU Type(s): Arm Cortex-A55, Arm Cortex-A76
Max CPU Frequency: 2.05GHz
Cores: Octa (8)
CPU Bit: 64-bit

So you want a DAP manufacturer to uses that kind of a monster of a SoC in their design so you can run, what? UAPP???
 
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Feb 10, 2020 at 7:54 AM Post #1,067 of 4,083
What about MediaTek SoC like Helio G90T that you can find in cheap smartphones like Redmi Note 8 Pro ?

If MIUI is running Android 9 , it's because MediaTek update their SDK.

I don't know , and maybe you can enlighten me about this , but are MediaTek recent SoC more expansive than 2 years old Samsung mid-range SoC ?

The thing is , MediaTek , like Qualcomm and Rockchip are brand that only make SoC , while Samsung (Exynos) , Huawei (Kirin) ... are in a variety of market.
Few devices are using Exynos & Kirin , comparing to MediaTek , Qualcomm and Rockship.
So you have better chance of having a up-to-date SDK with manufacturer like MediaTek or Qualcomm than Samsung or Huawei , this is why i said it was a bad choice for choosing Exynos.

Huawei don't sell their Soc to other company, MTK's Soc has limited IIS interface which can't supports hi-res/dsd format.
 
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Feb 10, 2020 at 7:56 AM Post #1,068 of 4,083
As an addendum to my points above, I will say this: the only reason MOST people I speak to want the Play Store is to run two specific apps that require Play Store support: UAPP and Plex. If you do not need either of these apps, or another app that perhaps also requires Play Services but isn't as common as those two, then the question about the M15 not supporting Play is moot. Just move on...

Also, this issue would be far less polarising if someone - even FiiO - made a music player that came close to the functionality and quality of UAPP (and no, Neutron, HiBy and Poweramp don't come close for a variety of different reasons). If any of those players stepped up with halfway decent apps for the M15, noone would be mentioning the Play Store.

A&K, for what it's worth, have a better default player, so UAPP support isn't as useful as it perhaps is on FiiO. That said, A&K don't support Plex, so that's still a fail for me, regardless of SQ. Others, like Lotoo, also have very solid media Ayers and EQ, but lack streaming support, so no go there either.

As someone mentioned above, only HiBy, out of all the DAP makers, currently support full Android out the box. Which is ironic considering HiBy made a name for themselves as software developers for companies like Cayin and Shanling, and continue to provide their basic software to those companies while supporting full Android on their own players.

Just my 0.02.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 7:58 AM Post #1,069 of 4,083
Huawei don't sell their Soc to other company, MTK's Soc has limited IIS interface which can't supports hi-res/dsd format.
@JamesFiiO may I ask why you don't switch to Qualcomm like HiBy? That'll surely solve your problem? Maybe not for the current generation of M players, but certainly for future products.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 8:09 AM Post #1,070 of 4,083
@JamesFiiO may I ask why you don't switch to Qualcomm like HiBy? That'll surely solve your problem? Maybe not for the current generation of M players, but certainly for future products.

When we start our project, we have not resource to develop any products based on Qualcomm's Soc, I heard that other company get technical supports from the sales agents of Qualcomm but not Qualcomm itself.

Of course, now we have chance to use 625/425, but you need to consider it will be the winter of 2021 when we can make a new DAP based on such Soc. and I am not sure whether they will still produce these chips.

Anyway, We known this issues is very imports to Western user to get Android full supports but we have not choice at that time. but it does not means we don't willing to make a
Dap with latest Android version or with the best Soc from Samsung/MTK/Huawei/Qualcomm, it is just out of our ability.

I am very sorry about that too , hope we can solve this issues in the future.
 
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Feb 10, 2020 at 8:12 AM Post #1,071 of 4,083
When we start our project, we have not resource to develop any products based on Qualcomm's Soc, I heard that other company get technical supports from the sales agents of Qualcomm but not Qualcomm itself.

Of course, now we have chance to use 625/425, but you need to consider it will be the winter of 2021 when we can make a new DAP based on such Soc. and I am not sure whether they will still produce these chips.

Anyway, We known this issues is very imports to Western user to get Android full supports but we have not choice at that time. but it does not means we don't willing to make a
Dap with latest Android version or with the best Soc from Samsung/MTK/Huawei/Qualcomm, it is just out of our ability.

I am very sorry about that too , hope we can solve this issues in the future.
There's no need to apologise. I think FiiO changed the game with the release of the M11 at under $500, which showed what was possible at that price range. And now with the M15 you've set the bar for what's possible at $1300, though you have more competition here. Android support will always be a sticky issue, but that's out of your control at this stage. Looking forward to what else you guys come up with in future - and loving your UTWS and other BT products...very innovative indeed.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 8:25 AM Post #1,073 of 4,083
@JamesFiiO, will a future firmware release allow DSD512 files to be played on the stock music player app? Right now it only seems to work through Neutron.
If I may ask, where are you even finding DSD512 albums, and which headphones are you using that can actually distinguish the difference between DSD256 and DSD512?

I think if anything you'd want a desktop DAC to make full use of the information in such a high-res file. Just storing a DSD512 file/album would be quite impractical on a mobile player, no?
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 8:31 AM Post #1,074 of 4,083
If I may ask, where are you even finding DSD512 albums, and which headphones are you using that can actually distinguish the difference between DSD256 and DSD512?

I think if anything you'd want a desktop DAC to make full use of the information in such a high-res file. Just storing a DSD512 file/album would be quite impractical on a mobile player, no?
OCD loves numbers
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 8:52 AM Post #1,075 of 4,083
If I may ask, where are you even finding DSD512 albums, and which headphones are you using that can actually distinguish the difference between DSD256 and DSD512?
I think if anything you'd want a desktop DAC to make full use of the information in such a high-res file. Just storing a DSD512 file/album would be quite impractical on a mobile player, no?

Mm... I'm going to sidestep a potentially lengthy debate and simply answer your good questions:

My entire library is upsampled into DSD512 and the ones in current rotation get put on a 1TB SD.

I'm using an LCDi4 with an EA Horus cable, and the sonic benefits of DSD512 are superb. It is like upgrading your hardware's digital section–weightlessly.

It is a good point about using a desktop DAC over a DAP for DSD512, but the opposite also holds true for me. Portability puts limitations on how sophisticated you can make your D/A section. All the more reason to leverage the offline computing power of a PC to upsample files into DSD512 and transfer them for decoding on a DAP–provided your DAP is capable of it. Most are not, but the M15 seems to be able to handle it, which is why I'm perplexed that the Fiio's native app restricts playback to DSD256.

O', yes, I do love numbers. 512 is a good one.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 9:01 AM Post #1,076 of 4,083
Mm... I'm going to sidestep a potentially lengthy debate and simply answer your good questions:

My entire library is upsampled into DSD512 and the ones in current rotation get put on a 1TB SD.

I'm using an LCDi4 with an EA Horus cable, and the sonic benefits of DSD512 are superb. It is like upgrading your hardware's digital section–weightlessly.

It is a good point about using a desktop DAC over a DAP for DSD512, but the opposite also holds true for me. Portability puts limitations on how sophisticated you can make your D/A section. All the more reason to leverage the offline computing power of a PC to upsample files into DSD512 and transfer them for decoding on a DAP–provided your DAP is capable of it. Most are not, but the M15 seems to be able to handle it, which is why I'm perplexed that the Fiio's native app restricts playback to DSD256.

O', yes, I do love numbers. 512 is a good one.
Ok, interesting. Though here's another question: if you're simply upsampling, aren't you just adding empty data? You're not getting any extra information from a Redbook file, for example, if you upsample to DSD512. Or am I wrong? I personally haven't heard any benefits myself, and I use fairly resolving desktop gear. In fact apps like UAPP even discourage you from upsampling away from native bitrates, because quality more often than not takes a hit, or at best, you're just adding empty megabytes.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 9:09 AM Post #1,077 of 4,083
Ok, interesting. Though here's another question: if you're simply upsampling, aren't you just adding empty data? You're not getting any extra information from a Redbook file, for example, if you upsample to DSD512. Or am I wrong? I personally haven't heard any benefits myself, and I use fairly resolving desktop gear. In fact apps like UAPP even discourage you from upsampling away from native bitrates, because quality more often than not takes a hit, or at best, you're just adding empty megabytes.

It is not actually about adding information, trying to lose as little data as possible by by-passing the internal (multibit) over-sampling process of the DAC, which converts PCM to a (multibit) DSD-like format, which is the nature of a delta-sigma DAC. For example AK4497 and ES9028 does 256x over-sampling and AK4499 does 128x over-sampling. Assuming that the internal filtering of your DAC is not as good, the idea is to do the conversion externally with a better algorithm. So in the end, you don't add additional data but try to lose as less data as possible during the internal over-sampling.
 
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Feb 10, 2020 at 9:13 AM Post #1,078 of 4,083
thank you very much for your summary and that is 100% correct . of course we will try to see if we can use aother new Soc which is fast enough and still can supports Google service . but plz understand that is quite difficult cause this market is too small and the Qualcomm will not support such a tiny company like FiiO.

Can you unlock the bootloader, so the device can be rooted and a custom rom can be developed to add the Play Store?
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 9:16 AM Post #1,079 of 4,083
you like DX160 SQ more than DX228, or just an backup for M15.

To me the DX160 is close enough in SQ to the DX228Ex but in a smaller package that it’s worth the “downgrade” for more portability.

As far as back up to M15, I don’t know yet. I prefer the dx160 more reference tuning but I like the m15 more overall as it offers just about everything you need.
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 9:33 AM Post #1,080 of 4,083
It is not actually about adding information, trying to lose as little data as possible by by-passing the internal (multibit) over-sampling process of the DAC, which converts PCM to a (multibit) DSD-like format, which is the nature of a delta-sigma DAC. For example AK4497 and ES9028 does 256x over-sampling and AK4499 does 128x over-sampling. Assuming that the internal filtering of your DAC is not as good, the idea is to do the conversion externally with a better algorithm. So in the end, you don't add additional data but try to lose as less data as possible during the internal over-sampling.

Yeah definitely. As you said, you can't add more information onto Redbook, but as Dargin pointed out, you are presently losing information through the conversion processes. DSD can better minimize those losses. Beside what he mentioned, upsampling to DSD also allows you to improve the filtering so that you can extract more of the signal from the noise. This all results in sonic improvements across the board: more detail, blacker background, better clarity, more natural timbres, etc., a generally less digitally harsh and more fluid analog sound.

There has been so much debate with A/B comparisons, and then discussions about the psychological legitimacy of A/B comparisons. The thing is, there are so many factors involved, like your overall system. In the end, you really have to sit with DSD (at whatever sample rate) for a while, in a quiet space, with your gear, to appreciate it.

Upsampling into DSD is not the same as simply upsampling the frequency. UAPP has included a basic upsampling algorithm, and Dave himself would tell you that its not great and not to use it. You're right, with a simple algorithm like that you only get more mathematical errors the further you get from your source frequency rate.

Look at that, we're back to talking numbers again.
 

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