[MacFrank]

@MONVMENTVM:
(Hi back, there

)
Thank you for supporting me. "Colored" is exactly the term I've been desperately searching for.

Neither the HD650 nor the HD600 are neutral headphones, that's true. But especially the HD600 are less coloured than the (compared to other manufacturers) quite extreme Grados - as a matter of fact some people do find the HD600 a bit "boring". To my ears it does come quite near to the way of musical reproduction that loudspeakers provide.
A Grado is a thing of emotion, a god of rock - but, and I'm sorry, at the same time it can be a brat when it comes to classic and genres like soft Folk, musicals or adult pop. Especially as I am very keen on a broad soundstage those genres don't work very well for me with Grado.

But what a GS1000 is able to do I can't even imagine, I suppose...

@kmanmx:
The HD650 are quite "dark" sounding, which means they have less bright highs and a very solid bass grounding. That makes the sound less light, less easy and allover more set. I like the setting of my HD600 (which is still brighter than the HD650) quite much, as it is a good diversion to the DT880, which is bright and more biased towards highs.

Concerning soundstage, the problem with the Grado's missing wideness in soundstage isn't that it simply doesn't sound very "wide" but that you can't locate and seperate the particular instruments easily. I don't appreciate listening to 15 violins sitting atop each other.

(just a joke

)

 

[MONVMENTVM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacFrank /img/forum/go_quote.gif Concerning soundstage, the problem with the Grado's missing wideness in soundstage isn't that it simply doesn't sound very "wide" but that you can't locate and seperate the particular instruments easily. I don't appreciate listening to 15 violins sitting atop each other. (just a joke )

But on the other hand if I listen to Vehementer Nos, which is Progressive Black Metal with Classical instruments (like violins, chellos...), I really like the sound of the Grados. The music has a lot of calm and soothing moments using acoustic guitars, chellos and violins which aren't extremely layered, so soundstage isn't that important. But the sound of violins and chellos on the Grado is really great. That's why I want to try the GS-1000 which hopefully will sound that good with a larger soundstage for classical music.
The same goes for bands like Nucleus Torn. Their latest album "Knell" is hard to describe. It has the dark, melancholic feeling of Black Metal but it is maybe 30% Metal at all. It has a really nice contrast between calm and silent passages with acoustic guitars, violins, chellos, flutes and soft female vocals and then loud, aggressive and powerfull moments with distorted guitars and male vocals which aren't your standard (Black) Metal vocals either, as they are always clean and somehow strange (but in a positive way). This is a more complex composition with lots of details to it and it may be a bit inaccessible at the beginning, but it still sounds great on Grados, though I didn't listen to this album with Senns.

 

[MacFrank]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MONVMENTVM /img/forum/go_quote.gif But on the other hand if I listen to Vehementer Nos, which is Progressive Black Metal with Classical instruments (like violins, chellos...), I really like the sound of the Grados. The music has a lot of calm and soothing moments using acoustic guitars, chellos and violins which aren't extremely layered, so soundstage isn't that important. But the sound of violins and chellos on the Grado is really great. That's why I want to try the GS-1000 which hopefully will sound that good with a larger soundstage for classical music. The same goes for bands like Nucleus Torn. Their latest album "Knell" is hard to describe. It has the dark, melancholic feeling of Black Metal but it is maybe 30% Metal at all. It has a really nice contrast between calm and silent passages with acoustic guitars, violins, chellos, flutes and soft female vocals and then loud, aggressive and powerfull moments with distorted guitars and male vocals which aren't your standard (Black) Metal vocals either, as they are always clean and somehow strange (but in a positive way). This is a more complex composition with lots of details to it and it may be a bit inaccessible at the beginning, but it still sounds great on Grados, though I didn't listen to this album with Senns.

What a pity I don't have the Grado experience you have.

You see, my experiences with Grado are based on just a few occasions, where I was able to listen to several models for a few hours. I think I got a nive overview of Grado but for these special details, like orchestral Metal, I didn't have had time - besides the lack of records in this genre. But it sounds really impressive, I think I'll have a look at last.fm.

After all I still think that many rather similar instruments from one direction may overload the very narrow stage of the Grado. Could it be, that your Metal records feature many different instruments, but not several of the same type?

btw, I don't think you want do listen to Metal with a Senn...

But if you do like you can try the bright DT880 with my (a bit dark sounding) Amp. That should do a much better job than the HD600

Alright, maybe this was too offtopic. I'm sorry.

 

[MONVMENTVM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacFrank /img/forum/go_quote.gif What a pity I don't have the Grado experience you have. You see, my experiences with Grado are based on just a few occasions, where I was able to listen to several models for a few hours. I think I got a nive overview of Grado but for these special details, like orchestral Metal, I didn't have had time - besides the lack of records in this genre. But it sounds really impressive, I think I'll have a look at last.fm. After all I still think that many rather similar instruments from one direction may overload the very narrow stage of the Grado. Could it be, that your Metal records feature many different instruments, but not several of the same type? btw, I don't think you want do listen to Metal with a Senn... But if you do like you can try the bright DT880 with my (a bit dark sounding) Amp. That should do a much better job than the HD600 Alright, maybe this was too offtopic. I'm sorry.

Yes, as I said the above mentioned albums aren't extremely layered. In this quiet moments when there are only acoustic guitar, a violin, a piano and a chello it sounds great. Here's no large soundstage needed anyway because f the (relatively) few instruments used. It's not comparable to classical music where you have lots of instruments at the same time where you need both - instrument separation and soundstage.

Right now I am listening to La Rumeur Des Chaines, which in fact is just the album/project name... this band somehow has no name

. Anyway it's Black Metal paired with with classical and jazz. It lacks the black metal atmosphere but it is interesting because it is very well played and the classical and jazzy parts are nice too. All in all this is a much more complex work, as it incorporates sometimes double-bass, distorted guitars and a lot of classical instruments at the same time. The Grados still deliver a nice SQ and you can definately hear all the instruments perfectly, so there is no mixture of them and they play accurately, but the narrow soundstage is really revealed here. Though if soundstage is not what you are looking for, they still do a nice job for this kind of music and you are able to hear all the details.

Btw. I think that atmospheric Black Metal wouldn't sound bad with Senns. K701 would be definately too bright for this kind of music but Senns would do fine I think. Standard Metal with heavy guitar tunes wouldn't really fit the Senns though, that's true.

 

[kmanmx]

so are the grado's bright headphones then ?

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmanmx /img/forum/go_quote.gif so are the grado's bright headphones then ?

More like edgy. Treble and upper midrange are prominent in Grado soundsignature, but its part of the whole Grado sound.

 

[kmanmx]

I sound stupid for asking, but whats edgy mean ?

Sorry, bit of a newbie with Headphones.


Right so what would you say is better at each of the following out of the Grado 225's and Senn 650's, just so i know what to expect. (for example just go 1. HD 650's, 2. Grado's etc etc

)

1. Bass
2. Treble
3. Midrange
4. Bass Impact
5. Brightness
6. Enjoyment
7. Detail
8. Transparency


Sorry for all the questions, i understand it's probably quite frustrating deailing with someone of my knowledge, i just like to be really sure before i shell out £200.

 

[MONVMENTVM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmanmx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I sound stupid for asking, but whats edgy mean ? Sorry, bit of a newbie with Headphones. Right so what would you say is better at each of the following out of the Grado 225's and Senn 650's, just so i know what to expect. (for example just go 1. HD 650's, 2. Grado's etc etc ) 1. Bass 2. Treble 3. Midrange 4. Bass Impact 5. Brightness 6. Enjoyment 7. Detail 8. Transparency Sorry for all the questions, i understand it's probably quite frustrating deailing with someone of my knowledge, i just like to be really sure before i shell out £200.

It's hard to compare headphones like this. For example bass quantity doesn't say anything about quality.

In general you could say that the Senns have a more relaxed, dark sound with a larger soundstage, while the Grados have more mids an a tad more treble. They are lacking the large soundstage, but therefore you get this on-stage feeling and they sound more aggressive and faster.

 

[kmanmx]

Ah right. I think i will like them.

Definitely prefer some bass quality over quantity, thats for definite.

 

[tev]

Ok, to answer your question, here is my humble experience on the points that you mentioned: this is a comparison of the 650 with the typical Grado SR and RS sound (the models do vary a bit however):


1. Bass: Senn=Grado; They are just different. Senns have bigger brooding bass and seem to go deeper. Grados are a bit more controlled. A lot depends on the amp here.

2. Treble: Grado> Senn, There is more of it with the Grados but it is not necessarily better tonally.

3. Midrange: Grado > Senn, Grado just has more midrange presense and emotion. However, it can be a bit too warm and colored on some music.

4. Bass Impact: Senn>Grado with good cables.

5. Brightness: Senns> Grado, Senns are less bright and easier to listen to for long periods without causing ear trauma. All Grados sound bright and piercing to me on less than perfect recordings. This is were Senns win out in my opinion.

6. Enjoyment: In general, Grado for small scale music ie. pop, jazz, small groups, most rock, etc.; Senn for most classical, full orchestral and big band jazz. Senns have a bigger soundstage.

7. Detail: Grado=Senn, Grado will have more detail out of the box, but with upgraded cables or a balanced set-up Senns are as good or better. Senns are a bit more neutral tonally.

8. Transparency; Tough call. An upgraded Senn may be better here across a wider fruequency range. Grados can sound thick with certain amps.


It took me a while to get the chacaracter of these two phones straight. The Grados are warm but a bit piercing. Kind of like the sun, it feels great at first but you can get overexposed if your not careful. The Grado presentation is very forward in the upper mid range and to some extent in the highs as well.

The Senns, as you know are back seat phones. Their warmth comes from the lower half of the frequency range and the presentation is distant.

I hope this helps.

 

[skeptic]

Thanks for the excellent breakdown Tev!

 

[headphonejunkie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmanmx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah well i don't like bright, at all. I'd actually chuck them out the window 225 it is. But i herd the 325 has better bass... and i do love good bass, especially if the drums in music have some real kick and impact behind them - i think the 650's do. But then there the only £50+ headphones i've herd. The things i love in music is music like ''Dire Straights'' and rock music, aswell as a range of others. with awesome drum sounds and guitars, how are grado on this ? O and how long is the cable ?

Get the 225's. They excel at drums.

 

[Punnisher]

I find the bass on my sr60s to be very punchy and warm, though they certainly are detailed. Never too bright, imo. They are just the perfect blend for me.

 

[VeipaCray]

kmanmx > Is there a dealer in your area where you could hear the headphones first hand? Are there any meetings from this group in your area? SOMEONE will inevitably bring a pair of Grados to the meet.

 

[daveip]

try them ... i love my grados and i'm looking at getting some igrados to bash and try out the 225s

i think its sort of an "acquired" taste? some say that the grados are abit too bright/colourful but thats the whole enjoyment of them i believe. the bass is there too, not in huge amounts but its very controlled. you're not going to be using them out of the house so quality over comfort. in the end, best thing is to try them out.