[hypnos1]

Hey H1, the EL38 is indeed a very special tube, and -I have to say- that your “discovery” of this tube for Euforia, for headphone duties, opened (for me) a whole new level of power amplification and top notch triode pre amplification with Euforia.

So yes, the quartet can be kind of wild and OTT sometimes with cans, but in a pre/power configuration there are other stages, cables, circuits, speakers and a room to deal with, so the extra definition is simply a blessing. The 4 EL 38s (triodes) really stand out in the OTL preamp, with a beautifully musical and commanding performance. The synergy was stunning, exemplary, and I was amazed with the delicacy and musical detail of the tubes in triode mode compared to the powerful personality of the same tubes as pentodes. By the way, they run barely warm in Euforia, and quite hot as powers...

Not to mention the Euforia with 4 x EL38s driving my two NAD mono solid state amps, capable of 450 watt peaks. Fantastic. The word is total, absolute domination of the Euforia sound over the amps (that sounded like tube amps) and its powerful, unrestricted OTL output generated such enormous dynamic swings and awesome bass to the point of being dangerous to my speakers !! I was shure to set the amps at 1/4 power...more than enough. But the danger was part of the fun...rock & roll sounded like a live concert, and any music came clean, clear, smooth, “tube like”. My SS amps never sounded better. In fact, I have tried many quite good preamps, but nothing like this. The OTLs do have a special synergy with SS amps, that’s for sure, and I don’t know why, there must be some technical reasons.

Anyway, the magic of the “full tube” setup is another matter, and at this level of amplification the question is how to optimize the rest of your gear to take full advantage of it. I do use a dedicated computer for music, played with quite a few USB processors and the like, and you know what ? simpler sounds better... will comment in my next post !

I take it then, J, that you rather like these EL38s lol?! ...really happy for you. (Methinks your poor ticker would have a bit of trouble coping with such a collection of the earlier large bottle version, and/or the silver-banded, black glass Philips/Darios, being yet another notch up the ladder!! ...but keep a look out nonetheless lol...).

And yes indeed, my Euforia setup also does wonders as preamp for my own SSamp...the Vincent SV121 integrated being no slouch already by any means. But 4x EL38s are a bit much for my poor (smallish) Dynaudio speakers!! Another plus from using the more 'delicate' EL11 drivers.

And yes again, at this sort of performance level, source becomes much more critical IMHO...along with cables. For this reason I still much prefer top flight CD drive delivery (along with hi-end DAC of course!). Or, better still, something like the Naim UnitiCore, that rips from its own exceptional CD drive straight to its internal SSD drive... (also having external USB drive function for hi-res files).
Via this source,the quality from well recorded CD is often better than a lot of of so-called hi-res fare! But feed it good hi-res material, and the sound can be quite stunning...especially through top flight headphones .

So, good luck with your own trials...and look forward to the results you hinted at!

 

[hypnos1]

I'm happy to announce impressions of EL38 pairings with top-tier driver / power tubes

EL38 AS POWERS

• EL38 + RCA 6SN7GT (smoked grey glass): vivid, lifelike, robust and detailed
• EL38 + Valvo EL12: superb fidelity but a touch too euphonic
• EL38 + EL11: a fairly 'tubey' / euphonic and clinically detailed sound, yet with super fidelity
• EL38 + EL38 Everything is right, but somehow not surpassing other best combos I've tried so far. Outlandishly microphonic
• EL38 + EL32: A revelation! Excels in every aspect, with that special 'x-factor' of energy and emotion. More detailed and airy than quad of EL38. A somewhat 'intricate' / 'delicate' sound and modestly bright so SUPERB with slightly darker headphones
  

EL38 AS DRIVERS

• Quad 6BL7 + EL38: Superb fidelity with that 'x-factor'. Relism and refinement in spades, good soundstage, separation. Slightly bright and comparable but barely trailing the EL38 + EL32 pairing
• GEC 6AS7G + EL38: Realistic and vivid, velvety, full bodied and pristine, yet somehow something leaving something to be desired in the realm of dynamics / slam (as usual)
• Mullard 6080 + EL38 passive, nothing stands out
• GEC 6080 + EL38: great, linear and refined sound with top notch fidelity, but somehow lacking to the Bendix 6080 pairing
• Benxix 6080 (slotted graphite plates) + EL38: Absolute world-class performer!!! Front row seat to unwavering sonic delight. Airy, vivid, detailed, properly balanced performance, impactful, snappy, authoritative and weighty with perfect tonality, layering and good soundstange. MIND BLOWING, UNRIVALED for single-tube combinations
  

While the Bendix 6080 slotted graphite plates are quite an exceptional and unique tube, I've never heard them perform to such great heights until paired with the EL38's. It's a marvelous world class combination and after literally years experimenting is by a great margin the best single-tube per socket combination I've heard to date on either Elise or Euforia. Do note however YMMV depending on one's system and hearing; though as usual I had put the above all through fairly thorough testing (multiple takes with multiple headphones and various test songs and comparisons of the top contenders.)

Hi DL...interesting results, that certainly highlight the versatility of the EL38. And just how different will be the findings for each individual's system/hearing/preferences lol!

I am a little concerned, however, about a couple of factors that might possibly have skewed your results somewhat...

Firstly, you mentioned bad microphonics from using 4x EL38s.... I, and others, haven't experienced this at all - from good tubes (and adapters) that is! - and would therefore indicate something is very wrong somewhere!

Secondly - as I've alerted folks to in the past - going from 6SN7/6AS7G tubes to the EL family (either as driver or power) can often require a day or so for the amp to readjust properly to the different tube(s). And then there's the time needed for the brain to readjust to the different presentation. I personally wouldn't be at all happy with trying to rely on my own findings from such a plethora of different tube combinations, unless over an extremely long period of time...especially as one's findings can vary even when going back later to the same combo, which would also be necessary as confirmation lol!! Plus, different headphones must give different results...no question!

So I'm sorry DL, but your listing can only be a very rough guide indeed. But as usual, at least food for anyone who wishes to try their own different combinations...as with anyone else's findings, including my own!

 

[connieflyer]

I have noticed this in the past, that going back to el38 always took about 10-12 hours to come back to full splendor

 

[hypnos1]

Hey @DecentLevi ...remember that 2x EL38s plus 2x 6080s/6AS7gs make a heater current draw of 7.8A, which is pushing the trafo even though it may have a certain headroom, and the 38s running cooler than 6SN7s lol....not really recommended, I’m afraid...

 

[Tunkejazz]

Hey @DecentLevi ...remember that 2x EL38s plus 2x 6080s/6AS7gs make a heater current draw of 7.8A, which is pushing the trafo even though it may have a certain headroom, and the 38s running cooler than 6SN7s lol....not really recommended, I’m afraid...

Please, could you remind me what was the maximum total current draw that is recommended by the manufacturer?

 

[Tunkejazz]

Hi Tunkejazz. Thanks for popping in to say hello!

Haven't heard many folks not very happy with the bass from Euforia, and suspect that - as usual - so much depends on the rest of the system also....coupled with the actual tubes used. If you want loads of bass, the Mullard ECC31 driver (needs adapter) delivers in spades. But as mordy says, the EL38 power (with adapter) is the most impressive tube I've adapted so far...not only for quantity of bass - with better detail/control than the ECC31 - but right across the board.

Headphones too will have a big impact...my new Meze Empyreans, for example, deliver a bass that far exceeds the Beyer T1s and the HD800!!

So good luck with your own search for the bass you seek lol...never is easy to get everything one would love from a system. It's taken me a good few years, and a lot of $$$$ to finally believe I've found my own source of audio nirvana...(just hope and pray my hearing and/or preferences don't change too much for a long while yet lol!!! ...CHEERS!...CJ

Hello!
my apologies for taking so long to answer, I have been abroad 2 weeks for work.

Thank you very much for the advise!
I investigated a bit more the issue. It turns out that things got a lot better 1h after I turned the amp on. So it must have been a warm up effect.
The weird part is that I did not notice this issue in the past with similar tubes. Could it be that they are ageing?

Now I am curious about the EL38. For once I am in the right country to order these tubes, given that most sellers are based in UK so no import taxes (for now).
Shall I assume that EL38 should work fine with any 6SN7 tube?

 

[leftside]

The problem is that I have 2 hobbies: I am a gamer and I like to listen to music. This means I have a quite powerful gaming rig with a lot of storage space for my digital collection (8TB or so).
This means I need a clean way to bring this collection via USB to the DAC. I do not really want to start with streamers or another PC made for audio, it will complicate too much my life.

I'm also a gamer and have a powerful gaming rig that also acts as a music transport and for streaming Netflix/watching downloaded movies. BlueJeans USB cable out of the back of the PC and straight into the DAC. Job done. No noise. This PC uses an SSD drive to store music files (and a separate SSD drive for games), is liquid cooled, and has the quietest fans and quietest Nvidia MSI GTX 1080 graphics card I could find. If this machine made even a hint of noise there would be complaints from the other party who also uses this room... And the only noise I can ever hear through headphones is if there is a noisy tube in the headphone amp. This is also when using the very sensitive Focal Stellia (they will detect even the slightest noise).

They techy in me would definitely like to play with all these gadgets I see on here and Computer Audiophile, but as I can't hear any noise now then it's pretty low on my list of priorities.

 

[triggsviola]

I'm also a gamer and have a powerful gaming rig that also acts as a music transport and for streaming Netflix/watching downloaded movies. BlueJeans USB cable out of the back of the PC and straight into the DAC. Job done. No noise. This PC uses an SSD drive to store music files (and a separate SSD drive for games), is liquid cooled, and has the quietest fans and quietest Nvidia MSI GTX 1080 graphics card I could find. If this machine made even a hint of noise there would be complaints from the other party who also uses this room... And the only noise I can ever hear through headphones is if there is a noisy tube in the headphone amp. This is also when using the very sensitive Focal Stellia (they will detect even the slightest noise).

They techy in me would definitely like to play with all these gadgets I see on here and Computer Audiophile, but as I can't hear any noise now then it's pretty low on my list of priorities.

Before I got my Yggy, I was using the DAC on my Jotunheim amp/DAC to feed my Euforia. Lots of noise from the computer. Every time I moved the mouse, there was a weird electonic noise. I bought an Eitr and it totally cleaned the computer noise.

 

[leftside]

Before I got my Yggy, I was using the DAC on my Jotunheim amp/DAC to feed my Euforia. Lots of noise from the computer. Every time I moved the mouse, there was a weird electonic noise. I bought an Eitr and it totally cleaned the computer noise.

If that happened to me I’d definitely be looking for a solution. Glad you found one. Post bookmarked just in case this ever does happen to me in the future. Thanks.

 

[hypnos1]

Please, could you remind me what was the maximum total current draw that is recommended by the manufacturer?

Hello!
my apologies for taking so long to answer, I have been abroad 2 weeks for work.

Thank you very much for the advise!
I investigated a bit more the issue. It turns out that things got a lot better 1h after I turned the amp on. So it must have been a warm up effect.
The weird part is that I did not notice this issue in the past with similar tubes. Could it be that they are ageing?

Now I am curious about the EL38. For once I am in the right country to order these tubes, given that most sellers are based in UK so no import taxes (for now).
Shall I assume that EL38 should work fine with any 6SN7 tube?

Hi Tunkejazz...no problem re. delay...there is indeed life outside this hobby of ours - sometimes... (or is there lol?!! ).

Our amps are configured for 6.2A heater current draw, but it's been accepted that 7A should be OK. Anything more would certainly be frowned upon by F-A, warranty-wise...and definitely not be recommended by me!!

I haven't heard of any real problems from using 6SN7 drivers and EL38 powers...but I personally have always found that triode-strapped pentodes synergise best when used together. But as usual, to each his own...

Good to hear you may be in a better position for sourcing your own EL38s....they really are an amazing tube, especially at the price one can occasionally still find. There is in fact a French site that has them for a very reasonable 29 euros each : http://www.e44.com/composants/composants-actifs/tubes-electroniques/pentode/tube-electronique-el38-cv450-6cn6-5p29-pentode-8-pins-EL38-TUBE.html
Just email them for further info re. shipping etc.

Re. improvements in tube performance, many will indeed be better after a warm up period, but this usually needs just 10 to 20 minutes (in our amps). Anything longer would indicate that the tube is in fact still burning in, in which case it will undoubtedly continue to improve for a good while longer yet!!

Good luck with your tube hunting!...CJ

 

[connieflyer]

Hello CJ, I agree with you about the El tubes Synergy seems to be best using El tubes for drivers and Powers. For the last week or so I have been using the mullard el38. As powers and I had run across a pair of Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb, these were made and marked as GTB but we're actually the GT tube as they had run out of the GTB and substituted the GT tube with black plates I put them away and forgot about them. Found them put them in and after burn in this combination sounds absolutely stunning. I was surprised how well the Synergy work between the two tube types. I have tried other 6sn7 including the RCA gray 1947 variety which I found very well played. But these tung-sol are really something else. Next week I will be going back to all El tubes let them burn in for a few days or so and see if I see an improvement or if they sound about the same.

 

[mordy]

Hello CJ, I agree with you about the El tubes Synergy seems to be best using El tubes for drivers and Powers. For the last week or so I have been using the mullard el38. As powers and I had run across a pair of Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb, these were made and marked as GTB but we're actually the GT tube as they had run out of the GTB and substituted the GT tube with black plates I put them away and forgot about them. Found them put them in and after burn in this combination sounds absolutely stunning. I was surprised how well the Synergy work between the two tube types. I have tried other 6sn7 including the RCA gray 1947 variety which I found very well played. But these tung-sol are really something else. Next week I will be going back to all El tubes let them burn in for a few days or so and see if I see an improvement or if they sound about the same.

Hi CF,
Interesting to read about the mislabeled TS black plate tubes. Could you post a picture? The TS BGRP go for crazy prices nowadays....

 

[DecentLevi]

Hey @DecentLevi ...remember that 2x EL38s plus 2x 6080s/6AS7gs make a heater current draw of 7.8A, which is pushing the trafo even though it may have a certain headroom, and the 38s running cooler than 6SN7s lol....not really recommended, I’m afraid...

Oh that's right the EL38 uses a good bit more than the the EL32, and does seem to be performing closer to proper operating points. At about 1ah above the recommended voltage draw I would use this one sparingly (Bendix 6080 + EL38), or at least check for overheating... this does raise the question however: even if a tube is rated to draw a certain amount of current above what device is designed for; will the amp front this extra amount or will it stop at the max load so that extra current is not produced anyway? (If) the latter is true, there may be more flexibility than thought for for small overages.

Certainly this is also an example of good (excellent) synergy between two tube types as well.

 

[DecentLevi]

Hi DL...interesting results, that certainly highlight the versatility of the EL38. And just how different will be the findings for each individual's system/hearing/preferences lol!

I am a little concerned, however, about a couple of factors that might possibly have skewed your results somewhat...

Firstly, you mentioned bad microphonics from using 4x EL38s.... I, and others, haven't experienced this at all - from good tubes (and adapters) that is! - and would therefore indicate something is very wrong somewhere!

Secondly - as I've alerted folks to in the past - going from 6SN7/6AS7G tubes to the EL family (either as driver or power) can often require a day or so for the amp to readjust properly to the different tube(s). And then there's the time needed for the brain to readjust to the different presentation. I personally wouldn't be at all happy with trying to rely on my own findings from such a plethora of different tube combinations, unless over an extremely long period of time...especially as one's findings can vary even when going back later to the same combo, which would also be necessary as confirmation lol!! Plus, different headphones must give different results...no question!

So I'm sorry DL, but your listing can only be a very rough guide indeed. But as usual, at least food for anyone who wishes to try their own different combinations...as with anyone else's findings, including my own!

RE microphonics with 4x 38, my entire system is in top flight condition and I recently inspected the Euforia's interior to be pristine, perhaps it could be from burn-in time or the black socket savers.

Also you and CF mentioned about 10-12 hours to allow EL tubes to come into their own, or even a day. Wouldn't that be overshooting the recommended session use time for the amp without resting period? Alas giving 10+ hours for each tube combination isn't practical for me as a busy professional with literally hundreds of possible tube combinations so I give it a go after 10 minutes and expect the sonic characteristics of a tube to remain (largely) the same over their lifetime, as has been my experience over the years.

Agreed headphones make a big difference in the output result so I note which sound better with certain pairings and one can find different results accordingly too

 

[hypnos1]

RE microphonics with 4x 38, my entire system is in top flight condition and I recently inspected the Euforia's interior to be pristine, perhaps it could be from burn-in time or the black socket savers.

Also you and CF mentioned about 10-12 hours to allow EL tubes to come into their own, or even a day. Wouldn't that be overshooting the recommended session use time for the amp without resting period? Alas giving 10+ hours for each tube combination isn't practical for me as a busy professional with literally hundreds of possible tube combinations so I give it a go after 10 minutes and expect the sonic characteristics of a tube to remain (largely) the same over their lifetime, as has been my experience over the years.

Agreed headphones make a big difference in the output result so I note which sound better with certain pairings and one can find different results accordingly too

Hi DL.

Re. microphonics, it would appear then that either tube(s) or adapters (or both!) are the culprit. Assuming it doesn't subside after a few hours... if tube(s), silicone rings or tape might cure/reduce, but is likely to be a problem eventually alas. If adapter, it needs to be returned as faulty!

Re. the time needed to be allowed inbetween changing from conventional tubes to the ELs, this is due mostly to the amp needing to readjust to their different requirements (not necessarily in one long session!)...but also, as I mentioned, time for the brain to readjust to a different sound presentation (as is generally recognised by those more experienced in this area). This is, of course, totally distinct from a tube's sonic characteristics lol!!

So I'm sorry DL, but 10 mins is nowhere near long enough to allow for such requirements, and will not produce anything like accurate or valid conclusions...especially when changing between different tube families (and would only attract derision from other forums not as 'charitable' as ours alas! ).

And re. your previous question about current draw, the heater demand is constant of course, determined by each tube's set requirement...and will therefore be a constant load on the transformer, not variable. So caution is advised!...CJ